EP 24 Dr. Joseph Goins CEO, NS4ed

Dr. Joseph Goins
CEO, NS4ed

Quote of the Podcast – 

“To find what one is fitted to do and secure the opportunity to do it is the key to happiness”. John Dewey

Introduction of Guest BIO – 

Dr. Joseph L. Goins’s career began as a vocational educator in Tennessee, where he had the opportunity to develop the foundational skills program for learners with the Tennessee Board of Regents (TBR) System.  He was nominated for “Teacher of the Year” within the TBR system in 1995 and helped develop the first occupational profiles for the work-ready credential for 26 Technical and 14 Community Colleges.  

For much of Joseph’s 30+ year career, he has focused on education and custom solutions in the ED TECH industry.  His career has brought him a deep understanding of integrating technology into the classroom through resources that promote student achievement, teacher effectiveness, and leadership strategies for administrators. He has led sales, marketing, and professional development efforts in all US and international markets. 

Dr. Goins is the CEO of an action-based research company, NS4ed, which works closely with policy leaders, companies, schools, teachers, and educators alike to understand applying best practices and research into practice. NS4ed is committed to excellence in education, research, equity, and inclusion because Joseph practices and lives by those same principles. This is also evident in that NS4ed is devoted to giving back to the communities it serves. Joseph works with schools across the country, helping them identify the best solution that fits their culture, region, needs, and, ultimately, valuable solutions that allow learners to be successful.  NS4ed developed the Pathway2Careers model that embodies the Career-Connected Learning approach.

Podcast/book shoutouts

Savage Inequalities

Experience and Education

Foxfire Experience

Five Miles Away

Allure of Order

Unreasonable Hospitality

Transcript

Liza Holland [00:00:02]:
Welcome to education perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving that huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education.

Liza Holland [00:00:28]:
Joseph l Goine's career began as a vocational educator in Tennessee, where he had the opportunity to develop The foundational skills program for learners with the Tennessee Board of Regents system. He was nominated for teacher of the year within the TBR system in 1995 And help develop the 1st occupational profiles for the work ready credential for 26 technical and 14 community colleges. Additionally, Joseph developed a statewide basic skills mathematics curriculum focused on career pathways that were systematically adopted for all programs in Tennessee. He received a BS in mathematics education from Berea College in Kentucky And earned an MS in administration and supervision from the University of Tennessee. He completed his EDD from Vanderbilt University in educational leadership and policy. Currently, doctor Goins is a CEO of an action based research company, n s four e d, which works closely with policy leaders, companies, schools, teachers, and educators alike to understand applying best practices and research into practice. And s four e d is committed to excellence in education, research, equity, and inclusion. And because Joseph practices and lives by those same principles.

Liza Holland [00:01:46]:
Well, welcome, doctor Goins, to education perspectives.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:01:50]:
Thank you very much. Excited to be here. It's a privilege and an honor. Thank you very much, Liza.

Liza Holland [00:01:55]:
Well, we are super excited to have you and looking forward to hearing all about your journey, but I can't let you get away without my first question to every guest, which is taking a 30,000 foot view. Why, In your opinion, do we as a society invest in education?

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:02:12]:
Very good question. It's one of the questions I've studied a lot. Like, what is the purpose of education? Right. Is it to produce productive citizens, well rounded individuals? One of my favorite quotes of all time that I've I've I've really kind of embodied everything I'm about is to find what one is fitted to do and to secure that opportunity is the key to happiness, was said by John Dewey in 1911. And I always say that quote is as as true today as it was in 1911. How do we help students And individuals find what they're fitted to do, but I love the 2nd part of that quote, and secure that opportunity is the key to happiness. And I think it's our job as educators to help people find what you're fitted to do, Help them secure that opportunity because that's where people are gonna be well rounded, happy, and successful and contribute to society. So I've always embodied that quote because I think it says a lot, and I think John Dooley was spot on.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:03:13]:
And I use that quote sometimes and people think it's It was something said 2 years ago. I'm like, nope. We've been struggling with it since 1911. And I think education has gone around and around with topics like that. And, but I think, that how do we help those people find that path and, secure the opportunity to do it Should be the goal of education.

Liza Holland [00:03:35]:
Well, that's an excellent answer, and I think that quote is just as relevant, if not even more so today, considering the breadth and depth of all the different opportunities that are out there. That's marvelous. So what drew you to education as a career?

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:03:49]:
Oh, great question. You know, as, I grew up in, East Tennessee, kind of in a rural area, and, You know, as the world opened up to me and as you get opportunities to that are presented to you, I really thought education was the the vehicle that allowed me to do really good work and to do well at the same time, and I've always kind of It's funny as I've grown and gone through life, there was a a banner hanging up at Carnegie Mellon University that said do good, but do well. I remember talking to the provost one day at CMU, and I was like, I just love that idea. I was like, how do we do good but do well as we do it. And I always felt like education gave me the opportunity to contribute back while I try to Find my place in life, and, I love the idea that I can do well. But we are doing good work why we do it. And, so it's always served me well, and I've always been drawn to education my whole life. Right? I was an education major in college And really, never left.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:04:57]:
I mean, as I've grown, I've got the chance to start my own business, which allowed me to add things like innovation and creativity to the idea of education. Right? And, so I've enjoyed the journey, but I've always just been passionate about contributing back.

Liza Holland [00:05:13]:
That is great. And I think that so many of the people that are in education actually have that calling To be able to to kinda contribute to the greater good. You've had an interesting journey. Can you tell us a little bit more about it? And I know that you got an to have some of your education here in Kentucky.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:05:32]:
I did. I, I was very fortunate. In fact, I always tell this Great story because sometimes we forget the impact adults have on students' lives. I was in high school in Tennessee, and I had a a school counselor stopped me one day when I was a senior, and she said, I know this college you need to go to. And at the time, I mean, it sounds crazy for me to say this today, but, I'm not even sure I was prepared to go to college. You know? It wasn't on my radar. It was, you know, it just life was different, And this school counselor stopped me and said, hey. There's this place, and I think it's made for you.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:06:11]:
It's called Berea College in Kentucky. And I said, no. I don't think I'm interested. And she said, why don't you go spend a weekend? And if you don't like it, you know, no harm, no foul kinda thing. And so she Basically forced me to go to Berea and spend a weekend. And those that don't know about Berea, Berea is a unique place. There's no tuition. And, in fact, some of us jokingly refer to it as the Harvard for poor kids because, you had to have a financial need to get in, and It's a very special place for me because once I got in and saw that it was opening up doors and the creativity and the emphasis on Work and labor and service as much as they put emphasis on academics.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:06:55]:
It really fit me. It fit me like a glove, and, The place was very special to me, and I can honestly say that that college changed my life. I think my entire time I was at Berea, I might have had $2,000 in tuition total because it's completely free. The students work, and there's a labor aspect. And when you're there, you don't realize it. You don't realize what's going on because in my mind, every other college in America was like Bria. Right. And I was like, wait a minute.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:07:27]:
And I remember I went to graduate school. So for Bria, I was able to go finish my degree in math education, went to University of Tennessee For my master's in administration and supervision that I remember when I got to the University of Tennessee of how different the mindset was, how it was not, Like, focused on changing students. It was this big university with big goals, and, you become a little bit more of a number there. And I remember thinking, oh, this is what every other college is like. And, as I've made my journey through education, I, went on to get my, Doctorate at Vanderbilt in leadership and policy. And, and I go back to all the way to the very genesis of going to Berea, Not thinking you were gonna go to college and then having one of the highest degrees you can get from one of the top universities in the country. And I can go all the way back to Brie and say it started with them having me read John Dewey, experience in education my freshman year, them having me read Jonathan Kozol. Right.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:08:29]:
The night is dark, and I'm far away from home. Right? And really embedding in me the love for learning and how to get that through everything you do, and, it's allowed me to pursue, again, the highest degree you can get, which for me was a doctorate at Vanderbilt in, leadership and policy.

Liza Holland [00:08:47]:
You know, what a wonderful foundation and and and a rooting in why education really needs To be that special and kind of customized experience, that's just marvelous. And it set you on a path for what you're doing now. Can you tell us a little bit about, NS 4 ED?

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:09:08]:
Yes. About, actually, I graduated from Vanderbilt with my doctorate in 2016, and I said, well, it's kinda now or never. I spent a lot of time. I was an educator for a long time, And then I worked in what I would refer to as the ed tech industry to where you work for other companies, and, I've done that for a long time, most of my career now and, had a chance to kinda be sitting at the forefront of, like, what is technology in the classroom, and how do we change that? And done it for a couple other companies. And in 2016, I said, You know, it's kinda now or never, and I wanted to take all of the practices I've learned from other companies, both good and bad, And say, well, if I could do it, what would it look like? And so we started NS for Ed with the idea that we were gonna do research that impacted policy that led to better Practice in the classroom. And our motto is simple. We're gonna look at what research and efficacy says we should do, and how do we help The educators that are developing policy develop good policy, but then, ultimately, how do we pull that down to the individual student? So we started in 2016, started our company. It's kind of a fun story.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:10:24]:
We, I sat down 1 night And said, I wonder who would hire us to do this work. Wrote 10 emails, and, I got an email from, New Mexico. And they said, you know, we have this project around early college and dual credit and helping underprivileged, marginalized learners. Would you like to work? And I said, yeah. And so our very first contract was to the entire state of New Mexico supporting their initiative around early college and dual credit. And, we've now had that contract for 7 years, and, we've been supporting that work and have been able to Expand it. We now do that work for the entire state of Massachusetts and, other states as well. And so so we've started with the the research in a policy, and we've been able to say we're going to come alongside states and educators and work wherever they are, Help build out what they need to where they can be sustainable on the back end.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:11:22]:
And, through the model, we've also built our own education platform we call Pathway to Careers, and part of that is how do we help students, see their future, Figure out a way to get there, and we build resources to support that journey. And, we've been working on that, now for a couple of years And been adopted in several states, and that's been a fun journey because now we have the ability to go research policy all the way down to the classroom with our service So now we're in the classroom, which is where I like to be. Love the policy work, but I love it when we're in a classroom with the kids. And so And, through that journey, we've won 3 federal grants that really hard. I I jokingly say I have a love hate relationship with federal grants. I hate working on them. I love it when I win them. And, but we've won 3 federal grants.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:12:18]:
And in, 2 of the federal grants, they were the highest rated federal grant in the country. And part of our work was we have to start to reimagine education to fit our students from today. Yes. And so one of the grants, we were like, we have to tear apart the subject of math, for And we have to really think about this differently, and we proposed an idea to the federal government and it was funded. And, so So we were very lucky and fortunate there, but, it's given us the ability to say, well, let's do what research actually says. Right? And which is hard and build out that model. And so that's the journey we're on now, and, I'm excited where we're going. You know, sometimes when you are, in education in particular, when you are kind of on that edge of being the innovator first, it's hard for educators to adopt it, and so sometimes you're like, man, I hope I got this right, but, I think it's been a a good journey for us.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:13:23]:
Excited about what the future looks like.

Liza Holland [00:13:25]:
That is really great to hear because I think that, You know, my experience tells me that we really need to build some more bridges. Our world is changing in such an incredibly rapid fashion that, you know, we're now preparing kids for jobs that don't even exist yet. So that need for innovation and the ability To be flexible and to pivot and all that kind of a thing is not natural to our education system. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about the action research in the classroom, looking at how we document this to show that new methods and new ways of approaching learning are working.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:14:09]:
Yeah. And that that's a great question, and, I Totally agree with you. And, you know, when we looked at math, for example, I looked at the research on this, and, and this is where, You know, an education has done like, sometimes I even look at what we've done, like, through the US system. I'm like, For a long time, what we built in education is amazing. I mean, for I mean, we changed the world, The US model did. But there's also periods of times where it's like, okay. It probably needs to change now. Right? And I think that's for people sometimes to to understand.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:14:45]:
It's like, You know, we probably need to change. In 1800, we went to we were farming, and we built high schools for the industrial revolution, And I'm sure that was a very hard time. People were like, why do we have to go to high school? And now we tell kids, hey. To have a productive life and to have High wage, high growth, you've gotta do something beyond high school, whether it's an industry certificate or college. So think of the fence as moving again. Right. And with that, there's always these changes. And if you study kind of the culture of education, it's always Kind of that weird troubling time when those changes happen, and I think we're probably in it is one of my theories.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:15:24]:
But when we looked at math, for example, I looked at the research and I said, we've got now 20 years worth of performance data on that. And, historically, we've seen less than point 00 one change in places in 20 years. And it's like, okay. Well and I I do this presentation. It probably gets me in trouble, I I I I sometimes will say, well, if we keep doing it, we already know the outcome. Mhmm. I got 20 years of data that tells me exactly what's gonna Like and, I get in trouble sometimes because I'll go after the textbook industry. As a mom, I'd be like, yeah.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:16:03]:
But we adopted a textbook 5 years ago, And you're gonna do it again. What's going to change? Here's your data from 5 years. By the way, you did it 10 years ago. What changed? Did the authors of those books get smarter? And I think what my research tells me is what we've done for a long time, we look at academics or in math in particular That we looked at. We were chasing the idea of math for math's sake, and I wanted to flip it and say, well, I think it's about engagement. Like, what does engagement look like for a student? Because if it was about the math, we have a lot of smart math people. We should've fixed it. Right.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:16:39]:
Math could've fixed it. We have super intelligent people on math. But the question I always ask audience is, what's the number 1 question kids have been about math for about a

Liza Holland [00:16:49]:
100 years. Why do we

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:16:51]:
need to know this? Correct. Mhmm. Nobody's ever thought, like, well, maybe if we Started with that as a question, and that's what we did in our redesign. We said we're gonna start with this number 1 question. Why do you need to know this? But how do we think about this global economy kids live in? And so one of the things we did is we took every mass standard, And we said we're gonna put it through the lens of an actual career. We're gonna start with math. Here's a math standard. And now let's make math relevant to an actual career and show them the context of why math is needed.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:17:29]:
And I told when we wrote our our thesis for the federal government, I said, well, here's the the theory of action. We're gonna make it relevant. And what research tells me when kids have purpose, performance goes up. It's as simple as that. Give me purpose. I'm engaged. Performance goes up. Kinda doesn't matter what you do.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:17:47]:
I mean, to be really simple, give me purpose. I'm engaged. Right? And so I said, well, we're gonna figure out a way to purpose, but we're gonna solve this other problem that exists. How do we get kids prepared for their future? How do we expose them to careers through academic. We have this weird belief in education that we're gonna separate academics from this world of careers. Right. And the data tells me it's a mess. And what happens is we have 40% of college graduates.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:18:20]:
These are college graduates. They're classified as underemployed, which means they got a degree in something to where there are no jobs. And because we're not telling them, we're not showing them the relevance, and we're not unpacking the world they're walking into. It's kind of unfair. Right? And I'm like, well, I think we can. So we backed up in the math, and we said, well, research says engagement is a huge motivator. And if we figure that out, performance will go through the roof. And, oh, by the way, let's start tackling some of these other systemic problems.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:18:54]:
It's like, let's create awareness about careers through academic learning. So we embodied the 2. I always say the idea was smash these worlds together because we don't. Right? What we do with computer education, we treat it as an event. It's an event. It's not something we do all of the time, and I'm trying to do it all the time. Like, we can do this all time. We live in 2023.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:19:21]:
There's technology that allows me to pull videos of careers showing them the relevancy in every standard. And so we've been trying to follow the research and build a model that says if we do this, it'll really work.

Liza Holland [00:19:36]:
Nice.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:19:37]:
Yeah. I have a funny story. You'll like this, but I had a superintendent share. I did this presentation, about our math model, And this was a big school district and a really good friend of mine, superintendent. I trust her a lot. She called me afterwards. She said that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and that is perfect for our CTE students. And I kinda laughed, and I said to her and I said I said, do you mind if I hold up a mirror to our conversation? I want you to reflect upon our conversation.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:20:11]:
She said, what do you mean? And I said, Why do you think it's perfect for CTE students? And she says, we put careers. Because I put a career in an academic lesson, You think your academic students don't need to see that?

Liza Holland [00:20:26]:
Oh my gosh. Yes.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:20:28]:
And that's a crazy like, when you hold up a mirror to it, it's like, Why would an academic student not need to understand why you need to know log base ten in algebra 2 And how you apply that to the real world setting, and why you think that's only and I think it's the idea again, if you go back through history, we originally set up Vocational education. Mhmm. It was for these students, not my students, and then we had the students going to college. And you gotta really change your mindset. Like, wait a minute. This should be for all kids. All we're doing is embedding this. And, the conversation got funny because I said, well, how's your test scores? And she said, well, they've been going down for 5 years.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:21:12]:
And I was like, Well, what's going to change your performance in math? Right? I mean Exactly. I'm not sure switching the textbook from 1 textbook company to this Textbook company really is gonna do it, but you can try it.

Liza Holland [00:21:29]:
Well, that's the problem. We've been trying it for a really long time, and the textbooks are antiquated information. You know? You hear that from employers all the time. You are graduating students, you know, and citizens that do not have what I need them to have. And it's really easy to do this finger pointing thing back and forth, But how can we, as a society, build that bridge between Work and school and begin to bring school more relevant information because I keep I always Say, you know, teachers don't know what they don't know, and we should not expect them to. If we need different things from our students, It is incumbent upon society to be able to step up and say, these are the things that we really need and also help Teachers who are experts at being able to teach have up to date information to be able to give to their students. And I just see so much opportunity in that area, and your work really excites me because One of the biggest obstacles to that kind of a change is proving that it works. So that research and and also creating policies that allow for that type of innovation and, cooperation to work.

Liza Holland [00:22:52]:
So I'm really excited about What you're doing there, especially with, you know, content. It's it's all in your pocket these days. It's all about teaching kids How to think and how to process that information. I had 1 wonderful CEO tell me, says I need people who can learn, unlearn, and relearn.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:23:12]:
That's correct.

Liza Holland [00:23:13]:
And I thought perfect.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:23:15]:
Yeah. And I've seen and I I would 100% echo everything you're saying because I've seen. You know, I do a presentation sometimes. I call it the four e's, education that impacts employment that leads to economic development with a lens on equity. Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. And it's like and what we try to be is the center of that.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:23:36]:
Education, employment, economic development, and equity. And we look at data all the time. 81% of businesses say they don't get what they want from education.

Liza Holland [00:23:46]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:23:46]:
And our response in education, you know, is to lock the door and get mad. And I think the conversation that needs to happen now is You have to get off the crazy train because we can follow the cycle, which means education's gonna complain, educators are gonna get mad, we're gonna lock the door. We have to unwind it and say, okay. We have to invite the businesses in and say, well, help us understand what your needs are moving forward. Right? And let us show you what we're doing. Close that gap. And I think businesses, number 1, my experience has been from doing this, a, businesses are Starving to have that conversation, and I don't think educators are aware of that. Like, even if you're sincere and authentic in having that conversation, The doors of opportunities both for educators and your school will fly open.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:24:39]:
Right? Because businesses are really eager to help. We did a project in a state where a state asked me to do their Perkins five process, which Perkins five is all about addressing high wage and high need. And it's the federal law that where you're supposed to go in into your local community, and you're supposed to say, we're getting these federal dollars, But are we spending the dollars where we should to prepare the kids for future jobs? And this is federal law. It's Perkins five. And it's funny because the secretary of education from the state, I I called her up and I said, well, are you ready for the fight? And she said, what do you mean? And I said, Well and I'm not picking on this, but you spend an enormous amount of money on culinary arts with your federal dollars, And I'm fine with that. This is not my job. My job is to evaluate it and give you some feedback. But I can tell you the job market, Where the high wage jobs are are not there.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:25:39]:
Nope. And if you're encouraging schools to build more pathways With their federal dollars, then you better be prepared to have harder conversations with educators. Mhmm. Right? Are are we prepared for that? And And we went through this process, and, and we brought businesses, higher ed, and k 12 together. And when we did this in the state, we had 1200 people attend the meeting. Businesses were starting to have this conversation. Yes. And they were like, and once the businesses, the educators were sitting around a table looking at the data where the Jobs are going to be, and in some cases, there aren't any jobs because we're in a very rural area.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:26:24]:
And do we want our kids to be forced to leave our communities every day because there are no jobs, or we're gonna build an infrastructure so these kids can stay. And you gotta do the hard work, Which means, hey. Let's tackle the issues. Let's build the job market where the kids can stay. So we do all this work And, we shifted the priority in that state. And I remember I got a call after we were done, and she said, you're not gonna believe this. The secretary called me and said, you're not gonna believe this. I said, what? And she said, we doubled the allotment of money.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:26:56]:
And I said, what? Did the federal government give you more money? She said, no. I said, what do you mean you doubled? She said, well, when the businesses realized we were serious, they contributed, and they doubled the allotment of funding for schools. Right? And That

Liza Holland [00:27:13]:
gives me chills. That's awesome.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:27:16]:
And that's what it takes. Right? But it's hard work. It's not easy work. I can tell you from doing it.

Liza Holland [00:27:21]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:27:22]:
Hard work. You've gotta, like, survey your businesses. You gotta look at the data, then you gotta get educators Who, like you said, they're not from this world. They're not from the business world. And you gotta get them to come together and say, okay. Let's unpack what this means for our community. What does it mean for our students? And, you go down that pathway, that journey, and I find it exhilarating and fun work To do the work because you can see the change that you're trying to have in these communities. Education.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:27:58]:
And I think in today's world, we owe it to our children to have that conversation. Center for workforce out of Georgetown, they published a study, I think it was 2 years ago, to where they surveyed college graduates, people graduate. And I think over 70% of college graduates said they would change their major if somebody had had a conversation. Yes. Like, nobody's telling them, like, hey. You're majoring in this, but, oh, by the way, there's no job market for it.

Liza Holland [00:28:29]:
I know. Higher Education is just as guilty. They they're looking they're stuck in these old models and and old degrees and all that kind of stuff, and it's It's just not a match for what the real world is out there.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:28:41]:
That's correct. And we kinda owe it. We don't always feel like there's a moral obligation when you know You now have to share. Right? Like, hey. We have to share this with kids now. We got we gotta get out there. And I think there was a higher ed act that was passed right at the beginning of COVID to where there's supposed to be a requirement coming on higher ed, where they're supposed to be required to show the labor market come of your major to incoming freshmen. I don't know how it's really been implemented yet, but I know there were policies trying to be put in place saying, You know, let's at least you can still major.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:29:16]:
I always say, hey. Don't change your major if that's your passion, but let's at least show you, And let's show you how your skill might be transferable to another area to where your skill's in high demand. Right. Exactly. You know? I have a friend that his daughter graduated with forensic science because CSI came out on TV. Every college in America offered a a degree. But there's not a lot of jobs in that field, oddly enough, but the skills that you learn are astronomically in high demand.

Liza Holland [00:29:47]:
You know, and I think that that transferable skills piece is so incredibly important and finding ways to be able to, I mean, I think businesses need to understand and realize that when they're writing their job descriptions, it's you're not necessarily gonna get the perfect match, but if you have those skill sets, They are so adaptable.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:30:07]:
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I agree with you on that too because, like, my friend, his daughter graduated CSI degree. She ended up working for bed head, which is a hair product. But, again, it's all about deep chemistry and forensic science Yes. That they needed her, I believe, as a starting out job, it was, like, 70, $80,000.

Liza Holland [00:30:31]:
Oh, isn't that marvelous?

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:30:32]:
Year old. And I think she's already, like, some kind of product manager in this chemistry company, You know, in her mid twenties, making $120,000 because that skill is so high in demand. And it's like, you know, and how do we show kids that, hey. You know, you still follow your passion. If that detail work, right, and how do we show the transferability to it. But, yeah, that's the kind of stuff we need to show kids, unpack for them. And all of us have it. Education can help.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:31:01]:
Businesses can help. I agree with you on the like, there's been a lot of studies of how Horribly, some job descriptions are written by business businesses too. Right? They don't do a good job of writing the job description of the skill And how adaptable it is actually going to be.

Liza Holland [00:31:16]:
Well, this is all incredibly exciting to me because I think it's exactly the way And the direction that education needs to go for our students. And I like your your thought process about, You know, don't it's like Maya Angelou's quote about, don't bother about what you, didn't know before, but once you know better, do better. But it's neat To hear that this energy is happening in some places around the states, but this kind of change is not easy. You know, like you said before, it's really hard work. What are the biggest challenges that you have faced in trying to kind of advance this change in policy, change in how school is done.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:32:01]:
Yeah. And I think I think Schools in very innately are adverse they're very risk averse. You know? We're not gonna take that risk because there's so much pressure on a school to perform. And sometimes, I believe, we will defend levels of mediocrity at the risk of innovation. Right. We're risk averse, but we're just gonna defend the level of mediocrity we're getting. And I'm like, well, that's a horrible idea too. Right? Right.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:32:26]:
We have to, like, some level step out and say what we're doing. You know? Let's take that risk. Let's try the innovative model. And I do really believe that for me doing what we're doing, we look for those early adopters that are willing to be part of what I call a movement. Mhmm. Change sometimes is a movement, and you've gotta find the early adopters that are creative enough, I have courage to say, we're gonna try something different. We've got 20 years of math outcomes, and we're gonna just try something different because we already know the outcomes we're gonna get if we keep doing it. And I look for those early adopters that are saying, yeah.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:33:08]:
We are there. We've got we've built a professional development around our community within our PLCs to to build that infrastructure that says we can do it. And those are the ones that are probably gonna to advance the movement first, right, to change. Forcing change on schools is really, really hard, and, you've gotta get the buy in and get the adoption done the right way. And so I think that's the really hard work. I remember I was working with, Pittsburgh Science Learning Center and another group Back in the early 2000 in blended learning, I remember for a long time, nobody knew what it was.

Liza Holland [00:33:49]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:33:49]:
Everybody thought it was this crazy idea, Art, the flipped classroom. And I remember for about 18 months, all I ever did was try to Talk about why that was a a better model.

Liza Holland [00:34:03]:
Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:34:03]:
And then, eventually, blended learning became a norm, and then everybody was doing it. Right?

Liza Holland [00:34:08]:
Yeah. And And that's does that is how change happens. You know? They like you said, those early adopters are the ones that get the momentum going.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:34:16]:
Yeah. And the federal government rolled out, I mean, what we do is what I call career connected learning, how do you embody academic learning through the lens of a career? And I'm all about career connected learning. Let's do it all the time. The federal government rolled out an initiative last year called connected learning. And I always go, you know, when these things start to align, then you can get the movement. Like, I'm not the only one that sees this. I think there's a lot of smart people looking at it going, This is really important, and I think you'll see more and more people as policy gets drafted around these topics. But it is hard at the beginning.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:34:52]:
Right? I do this presentation, and I talk about it a lot across the country. And, I see the fear and the reluctance, but, You know? And, you're patient and you're like, hey. We could help you through the transition. And, and that's what we try to do is let's figure out the steps we can take along the journey before you even go full all in on the topic. Right? And So sometimes it's like, how do I dip my toe in it, see that outcome, see that engagement? We did a survey of our students in one of our states, And we have a bunch of independent evaluators. And it was funny. We asked students. They did one lesson.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:35:32]:
One. And we had I think it was 81% of the students said, I wanna learn math this way. And I will literally go in and I'll show that outcome as a measure. They'd be like, take me into a normal algebra one classroom and show me 81% engaged. Yeah. Yeah. And that and I That's an amazing statistic. Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:35:53]:
It's like we got 81% of the kids engaged after one lesson. What was fascinating went went back after they did 2 or 3 lessons, and we're almost at a 100% engagement.

Liza Holland [00:36:05]:
That is incredible. It can be done.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:36:08]:
It can be. And all it is is, like, we're answering the question they've been asking for a 100 years. Show me why this is relevant. And I was like, alright. I'll tackle the question. And, we have the technology today to where we can very quickly show them Careers and jobs and show them why this is important and those things. And, so, yeah, it's exciting. It is exciting.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:36:31]:
You know, as the the guy sometimes on the front line, you definitely feel the pressure of it getting the change adopted, But, no. It's super exciting.

Liza Holland [00:36:40]:
That is so neat. So given our conversation, what would you like for decision makers to know?

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:36:47]:
Oh, that's a really good question. You know, and I tell you what, I think, if I were to unpack that a little bit, I, I think we live in a a very weird time, and I've been in this industry a long time. I really have been in it 30 years now. And I think everybody says they're research based. Everybody says they're doing the right stuff. And if I could help educators, I would say, a, push on that a little bit. Lean into it because everybody says it doesn't mean everybody is. Right? And do a little bit of that due diligence.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:37:23]:
Right? And and because like, when we won the federal grant to reimagine math, I got probably 20 phone calls from other vendors, and this is how the conversation went. They'd be like, hey. We already have math. You won this big federal grant. Why don't you adopt OurBeth from said company, and we'll put a sticker on it, and we're gonna call it careers? And I think what we do in education is akin to that. We put a lot of stickers on things with movements, But we're not really transforming anything. The idea is there, and a lot of people put stickers on it and saying we're transforming. I'm like, well, you're really not.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:38:04]:
Still the same, and and I think if I could help educators, I'd probably be like, push on that a little bit. Right? If you're talking to somebody from my world, Push on a little bit. Don't be afraid to say, show me your research. Show me your efficacy. Show me how you're going to move me. Right? And then the second thing, once you do it, figure out a way to, bring your best and your brightest to that innovation. Right. You know? And one of the things that I think is interesting about school reform, we think about school reform.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:38:37]:
We have failing and so we're gonna tackle it. But sometimes we need the best and the brightest to tackle the innovation first because they can make that innovation shine. Right. Right? And they can make that innovation really work. And from that, the rest of the group will follow. Right? It's almost like, the rest of the group will follow that innovation now. You know? When you try the innovation with maybe your your teachers that are struggling while the innovation might work, your teachers aren't prepared for it. Like, sometimes they'd be like, hey.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:39:08]:
Try it with the teachers that are rock stars Because they're gonna make it come to life. Right? And then from that, you can go tackle the other teachers, right, or the other innovations. But those are are hard challenges, and, you know, and I I've always said I always wanna put my feet in these administrators' shoes and say, We'll come alongside, and we'll help you because it is very hard. There's a lot of pressure on these people, and I understand what they go through both in making decisions, Outcomes pressure, community organizations. There's a lot to balance. But at the end of the day, I think if you can see the innovation and the change, I think it'll benefit kids, It it is not an easy task. Right? And, honestly, I could probably give you a better answer if I noodle on that one a little bit more, Liza. That's a hard one because it's it's really tough.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:39:59]:
Right?

Liza Holland [00:40:01]:
And I think that the answer changes as time goes by. You know? Because and and where you are and where the community that you're in is, maybe the the lesson there is to start small to go big. See what you can do.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:40:14]:
That is correct. Very much so. Right? And I do believe you can have outcomes very quickly. I mean, there's this idea that sometimes, You know, I I look at the outcomes of early college high school programs. Explain to me how I can take a marginalized learner, a first generation Student that sometimes on average has a sub two point o GPA. They graduated high school with an associate degree. It's like, well, that worked. We've accelerated their learning to the point to where they got 2 degrees by the time they left high school.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:40:45]:
And I think when we create Models that are high aspirational for kids, they will rise to these levels, almost shock us. Yes. Give the kid that purpose, And learning happens. I see it so many times. And sometimes I believe we have this idea in education where we have to do the opposite. We got a remediator. We gotta do all of this low level work. I do this I've shared this story a lot in presentations.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:41:14]:
Research says the least this was done by the National Dropout Prevention Network, and they were trying to study where should you have the biggest impact If you got kids that are about to drop out, and I love this research. It's done by Clemson University, and what they found was the least effective strategy For an at risk kid to stay in school is academic tutoring. And I'm like Yeah. Wait a minute. This is where we spend All of our money and time is on academic tutoring. Right? And so the number one Effective way, if a kid is I call them in peril, they're at risk, about to drop out, is to get them to believe they have a career.

Liza Holland [00:41:58]:
Yeah. That doesn't surprise me.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:42:00]:
It is so counterintuitive, though, and I always say, you have these schools that will adopt double blind, And I know it's well intentioned, but this is and I always I'll do this in presentations. I'll just be like, okay. Let me get this straight. Joseph hates school, So this is our strategy. We're gonna make him take the least subject he hates the most, and we're gonna make him take it twice. And we're not gonna really give him a reason besides he has to do it twice. What do we think our outcome's going to be?

Liza Holland [00:42:31]:
Oh, I know. And it's like that definition of insanity continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:42:37]:
And not only that, but if you're having Billy Joseph do that twice, then you're probably taking him out of something he likes. Yeah. You know? And that's why when I look at You look at CTE outcomes. It's like, well, why is CTE about 97% high school graduation? Well, kids have if you don't overthink it, because sometimes we do, just don't overthink the answer. Well, kids had purpose. They did a lot of hands on stuff. They knew why they were there, and, like, that's a pretty phenomenal outcome. The CTE college completion rate is always my favorite stat.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:43:13]:
So we do about a 56% college completion rate right now in America. And so every kid that goes to college, we bat about 56%, which is not that good. No. But CTE students that go to college bad about an 82% completion.

Liza Holland [00:43:30]:
Boy, that's a big difference.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:43:32]:
And I tell everybody in CTE programs, half the time, we're not even telling these kids to go to college, And they outperform our college that we spend all of our energy and money on by almost 30%. And, again, if you don't overthink the answer, it's like, well, what's the simplest answer? Well, they had purpose. They knew why they were going to college, Or they found a pathway they were very passionate about, and they wanna pursue it at a higher level. And it's like, well, if we don't overthink that, Now how do you take that idea and just do it with all kids?

Liza Holland [00:44:05]:
Exactly.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:44:05]:
That's it. I'm like and so for me, the answer is, well, how do we just do that for all kids? Going back to how we started this, help kids find what they're fitted to do and secure the opportunity to do it. Right? And That helps kids find their journey. Right? And so, yeah, that's what we're about. And, This conversation is very enlightening because it's always good just to even hear yourself share it out loud sometimes. Oh, yeah. We are doing this work. Right?

Liza Holland [00:44:35]:
Yes. Yes. And it is great stuff, and I'm so glad that you were here to share it with us today.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:44:41]:
Thank you very much, Liza. Anytime, and, be glad to, work with you guys on any opportunity we can. So thank you for the opportunity and for the listeners and, excited to be a part of this conversation.

Liza Holland [00:44:54]:
Fantastic. Well, thank you again so very much for being on education perspectives.

Dr. Joseph Goins [00:44:59]:
Thank you very much, Liza.

Liza Holland [00:45:01]:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of education perspectives. Feel free to share your thoughts on our Facebook page. Let us know which education perspectives you would like to hear

Liza Holland [00:45:12]:
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