S3 E6 Integrating Emotional Wellness into Education: Insights with Kevin Dahill-Fuchel

PODCAST Season 3 EPISODE 3 

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel
Executive Director
Counseling In Schools  

Quote of the Podcast:   

Hope lies in dreams, in imagination, and in the courage of those who dare to make dreams into reality. – Jonas Salk  

Introduction of Guest BIO –  

A leader in school-based social work programming, Kevin has more than 30 years of experience in working with children, families and school staff. Kevin joined Counseling in Schools (CIS), in 1993 as a Counselor and advanced to become a Supervisor, Trainer & Manager. Through his 31-year career at CIS, Kevin has led the process to evolve CIS’ service reach beyond counseling services to include a multi-dimensional and strength-based menu of services that support an entire school community. As a result, he became the first Executive Director of Counseling In Schools succeeding the Founder, Cindy Jurow in 2012. In his current role, Kevin is committed to developing a team leadership model within the organization that embodies the non-oppressive, collaborative systems that are needed to effectively take on the complex challenges routinely faced in schools by children, families, teachers and administrators. Kevin’s outstanding work has been acknowledged through accolades including the Commitment to Hope Award, Massachusetts Commonwealth Award, the West Side Chamber of Commerce Award, and Hunter College’s Jacob Goldfiend Award. Prior to joining CIS, he worked at the Sojourner House Family Shelter in Roxbury, Massachusetts. Kevin is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who earned his degree from the Hunter College School of Social Work. 

Interview 

Agents of Change: Leaders/Innovators 

•  30, a 000 Ft. View – Why so we, as society invest in education? 
• What drew you to education? 
• School's as centers of healing 
• Defining types of crisis that impact schools, and levels of preparedness for each  
• NYC's Community Schools Initiative as critical education reform 
• What are the biggest challenges to you? 
• What would you like decision makers to know? 

Podcast/book shoutouts 

Shawn Ginwright, author of Hope and Healing in Urban Education - member of the CIS Advisory Council 

Transcript

Liza Holland [00:00:02]:
Welcome to education perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving such huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education.

Liza Holland [00:00:28]:
A leader in school based social work programming, Kevin has more than 30 years of experience in working with children, families, and school staff. Kevin joined the Counseling in Schools, or CIS, in 1993 as a counselor and advanced to become a supervisor, trainer, and manager. Throughout his 31 year career at CIS, Kevin has led the process to evolve CIS' service reach beyond counseling services to include a multidimensional and strength based menu of services that support an entire school community. As a result, he became the 1st executive director of counseling in schools, succeeding the founder, Cindy Juro, in 2,012. In his current role, Kevin is committed to developing a team leadership model within the organization that embodies the non oppressive collaborative systems that are needed to effectively take on the complex challenges routinely faced in schools by children, families, teachers, and administrators. Kevin's outstanding work has been acknowledged through accolades, including the commitment to hope award, Massachusetts Commonwealth award, the Westside Chamber of Commerce award, and Hunter College's Jacob Goldfeind award. Prior to joining CIS, he worked as the Soejourner House Family Shelter in Roxbury, Massachusetts. Kevin is a licensed clinical social worker who earned his degree from the Hunter College School of Social Work.

Liza Holland [00:01:56]:
So Kevin Dehilfuschel, welcome to Education Perspectives.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:02:01]:
Great to be here.

Liza Holland [00:02:02]:
Gotta kick you off with our first question, which is the big one. From a 30,000 foot view, why do you think that we as a society need to invest in education?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:02:12]:
That's a great question, and and certainly, it is a 30,000 foot question. Right? But I from my point of view, I really think that, schools and particularly public schools gives us the give us the opportunity to socialize our young people to to create a real connective point for, the growth of our communities and our societies, our values, the way we treat one another, the way we understand the world, the outlook on life that we have. I mean, I think so much comes through those buildings and those experiences for us as people that that they really are critical socialization mechanisms for our society.

Liza Holland [00:02:51]:
They are indeed. They are indeed a wonderful way for kids to be able to start to learn how to live in society and whatnot. So you come at this from a perspective of social work, and, I know you started early in a shelter, but have spent most of your time with CIS. What drew you to to this kind of a role? What drew you to education?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:03:13]:
I was really drawn to children and families, I think, early on, which is what brought me into the work at Sojourner House in Roxbury, Mass, which was in a shelter for homeless families. And I think I was really coming through my, you know, undergrad education and and really thinking about social justice and how society was working and and who was kind of coming out where and when and how. And that was at a point in the eighties when families were beginning to sort of show up on the screen of being homeless. And that was something that, you know, was kinda shaking people up a little bit. I think we normally thought we had we had other words and other ways of thinking about those people who were unhoused, but we weren't thinking about children and families. And as I connected into that space and and really started sort of, you know, learning about the experiences that people were having, it really drew me to kinda wanna keep trying to see, like, well, how can I go kinda further upstream, if you will, to see, like, where are some of the opportunities that younger people may have that could, you know, in some ways, help mitigate or create barriers to ending up in that situation? Understanding that so many of those situations have so many factors. But I do have a strong sense that when you have strong socialization, a strong social skill set really well, put together emotional, makeup, and you have a capacity to sort of problem solve in the world and become a contributor to society, that probably you will have a better shot, at living a a a life that that you want and not necessarily one that you are resigned to through circumstances that you feel you have no control over.

Liza Holland [00:04:55]:
Absolutely. And it sounds to me like CIS really goes a long way in trying to fill that need and solve that problem. I noticed on the website talking about the nationwide average of counselors to students being an obnoxiously high number, somewhere in the 4 100. So you and CIS help to kinda fill that gap. Tell us a little bit about what you do, how that works.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:05:20]:
Yeah. I think filling the gap is a is a great way to put it. I mean, it's filling a gap not just in the sense of what schools need, and I'll speak to that in a minute, but definitely filling a gap in the communities we serve to the availability of quality mental health and behavioral health practitioners that really, you know, families can access, children can access. You know, all the services that we provide are no cost to a family or to a child. I mean, they're all grant supported either private, or public sources. And to really be able to implement in the context of a place where families and children's come sort of, quote, unquote, normally or for the general course of their life really means there are no other appointments being made. There aren't schedules being rearranged or people being dragged to appointments to go through doors that say, you know, mental health, and folks don't necessarily wanna come to that readily. Right? So there's still stigma and things around that.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:06:16]:
So we really break down a lot of those barriers by implementing our services in the school. What the other gap around that is in which you've identified from our website in terms of that ratio of, you know, the title counselor to the individual, There is a skill set, a clinical skill set that we can bring into the space that really can start to move into the the lives of children and families in the context, again, of their normal school day, in the context of their learning, where we're really experiencing with them how they are connecting to other people, how they are experiencing the adults in the world, their peers, what types of emotional responses are they having, what are they coming in with, How can we connect with the families and bring additional resources? So that's there's a lot of different tentacles into that child coming into the school that really not possible. I mean, it really isn't a it's a gap that's not left because folks don't wanna fill it. It's because there are other responsibilities that don't give them that opportunity. And there's a skill set that we have that we come in with that then gives us the ability to do the work that that we do and really draw forward children and families into, you know, their own voice, into who they are, and really work on their strengths to build up the emotional capacity and their socialization skills.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:07:39]:
I know here in Kentucky, we have kind of a a a they call them Friskies, and it's a family and youth resource type of a center. But it's only available in certain schools, and it really does not necessarily serve all those wraparound needs for the community. Tell me about how you are making these different types of services available to the children and families and how you feel that might have made a difference to let the students really be open to learning. You know what I mean? Because so many of them these mental health and social and emotional well-being issues really help keep people, kids in particular, in that kind of fight or flight mode where it's really hard for them to learn.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:08:22]:
It's hard for them to learn, and I'd think part of that learning is the social emotional learning as well as the academic learning. Right? And

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:08:29]:
I think,

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:08:29]:
you know, we I think a lot about this, and I appreciate your question because I do know that the what we wanna be able to measure most intently as if someone matriculates through the various levels of schooling is that they've gained the knowledge that was in that level for them to achieve. Right? So we want them to learn something they didn't know before. I also wanna keep lifting up that we want them to, you know, be as self aware and as strong socially at each level. And I think both of those should I really want them to be thought about as equal partners and not one instead of only serving the other because he we certainly see many examples of people who can amass a lot of knowledge but really have a lot of difficulty relating to other people or really then have a lot of difficulty managing, you know, the stress and stressors that are part and parcel of of all of our lives and certainly during times like COVID and all the rest. So I think that, you know, all of that needs to come together at the same time. For us in New York City I mean, New York City, we look a lot at particular communities where there are high levels of adverse childhood experiences. You may have heard of the ACEs study. Right? That's the adverse childhood experiences.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:09:44]:
And that study also shows, to your point, that students who have scored high on that scale, right, a certain number of experiences equate to a number, equate to a scale, that when you're high on that scale, that your ability to progress positively through the the education system is really challenged. So we look at that within particular communities. We certainly you know, we served this past school year roughly 70 schools, and and we'll probably be in roughly the same number this year, maybe a few more. The New York City public school system has about 1700 schools, so we're a very small drop in the bucket. But even within the schools that we serve, the population that we serve, which is around 10,000 students throughout all of the schools that we serve. Right? In some parts of the country, that's a whole school district. But here, we're we're we're doing our part within those those areas where we can. One of the initiatives that that I think you do have in Kentucky or working hard to maintain and grow here in New York is the community school strategy, which is really that strategy of just to your point before, how do you bring the community resources and connectivity into the school for that wraparound or that, you know, full whole child experience throughout their time of in from k to 12 and then certainly beyond that, but certainly in the k to 12 or pre k to 12 time that they're there.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:11:06]:
So the community school initiative is is a real big component of what we've been a part of here in New York City. There are 17 of those schools that we provide what's called the lead partner experience, another 11 that we subcontract are subcontracted to to provide the behavioral health component to. But I I would really encourage any of your any of the listeners today to really look at that community school initiative, see where it is in your state, and and what it is that you can do to kinda see it as that impactful strategy that schools can use to really advance what we're talking about today, the the life of the child, the life of the family, you know, into this productive fulfilling experience.

Liza Holland [00:11:45]:
Absolutely. I, it kinda gets me thinking about you made a comment earlier about that balance between academics and social and emotional welfare. And that that kind of gets me in that thought of how schools actually really need to change. And, you know, we've got the content now in our pocket. Right? So a lot of this stuff we can look up, but it's really the process and how kids are able to approach things and be able to communicate effectively, all those durable skills that, business and industry are asking for. And it seems like that's a really good marriage there. What are your thoughts on that?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:12:24]:
A 100% agree. And I think that, you know, amongst one one of the other comments I made that probably didn't emphasize enough was just this idea of how do you get students' own voice into their education, and how do you bring sort of families and their experience into the educational experience so that they are, you know, engaged and then part of what is happening. Because part of what the training is in that that can work that that schools can work against is if you really just have a conformist type educational experience where you're you're learning to do what you're told or you're learning to follow instruction. But are you learning to follow, you know, what you feel inside, or are you learning to follow what you believe? You know, you have to help you have to be taught. You have to follow some part of the way to sort of get knowledge so that you have you know, not just coming off from your own first reactions. There needs to be an educated component to what you express. But having that opportunity and really seeing that that's part of the goal of the educational process, And that does include it certainly includes the social and emotional element to it. Right? How well, you know, you know how to sort of, you know, to to sort of tick my age here a little bit, you know, to do a little, winning friends and influencing people.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:13:44]:
I'm going back to, you know, the books of yore that taught those things. But that those are real skills. Like, how do you engage another person to have a persuasive, you know, argument if that's what it is that you need to do or to share an experience that you think it's important for them to know about? And our school's giving our young people that opportunity, or they're being asked to just sort of pair it back other experiences that other people have had that are intended to give them the idea of what they can do in their life, but never really give them the training ground to kinda put forward what it is that they might be thinking about doing in their own life. So I think that, you know, I'm right on board with where you are, in terms of that marriage and and what it can do.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:14:27]:
You know, I just feel like teachers need to take a little more of a of a coach role rather than a, you know, a sage on the stage as it were. Because kids, what our system right now is not doing well in most places is inspiring them to be lifelong learners. And with the pace of change that we have going on today, that's what we need to instill. And to me, I think that student agency piece is a real key. Do you find that with the the students that you're working with that if you can, you know, empower their self confidence and whatnot, that they might control their own learning a bit more?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:15:00]:
Absolutely. And I and I think one of the ways that happens for any any adult in the school building, certainly teachers, but any any of the adults whose children interact with, I think, have an influence on this part of what we're talking about. And I think that that is to, you know, to to sort of develop a relationship with a student. Like and that involves not an entirely breakdown of of of boundaries, but some personal sharing of your experience. And, certainly, if you're passionate, we want our teachers to be passionate about what they most people get into teaching, and they are passionate about a particular subject matter about what, you know, the the future that they wanna see for children. They they they come in with ideas and and passions. And sometimes because of the constrictions that the curricular or some of the other outcomes that people are expecting, it gets really tampered down. So that adult doesn't isn't exuding that.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:15:52]:
Like, the students aren't picking that up from the teacher. Even though if you were able to peel the other stuff back, that teacher might be someone who you're like, wow. I wanna be like that person when I, you know, grow up because they can share it with you and you can feel it from them that and then they give that to you and you take the floor and you can bring that forward. So I think those relationship building skills are an element that we focus on when we do work in schools, and I go again, go back to the community school initiative. One of the things we look at is what's the culture of the whole school? What's the environment that people are experiencing when they're in that building? And sometimes it comes down to us then, you know, creating these modules with teachers and other school staff just around some basic relationship building skills with young people. And how do you decode, you know, what might seem like, well, that's someone's being disrespectful or that young person is, you know, not really taking this seriously or this and that? And and how do you understand, particularly if I go back to the idea of we're working in schools with children that have lots of adverse childhood experiences? And I don't think New York City is the only place that happens.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:16:55]:
Nope.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:16:56]:
It happens lots of places. And those things that students act out in front of the adults often are interpreted in ways that are in the language of the adult and their experience, but not in the language that the student is communicating. And how do you translate that so that you can connect? Because in many ways, those behaviors that would come to mind probably if someone's hearing this are actually attempts to reach out. They're not they may appear to be pushing you away, but that arm extended is an arm extended. It's actually a hand open. And how do you make that connection? And once you do, then you can let the child in a little bit into you and then from there to the subject matter and make those bridges always back to your subject matter, but using yourself as that vehicle for the relationship and for that relationship to be a vehicle to the subject matter. That's not like it's 1, 2, 3, you learn it and you're done. It's an ongoing practice.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:17:47]:
Right? Like, I know it as a social worker, but I have a practice. That means that I always have to be learning. I think teachers have a practice and a pedagogical practice that is constantly needing to be kind of looked at and understood, not necessarily always with just the newest technique, learn to use the smart board, learn to use the Internet, but with those relationship skills and what is the experience in the community around you, who are those children who are coming to your classroom, and what do they need from you as a human being so that they can learn as a student and, like, as you say, become that lifelong learner.

Liza Holland [00:18:22]:
There are so many different things that both our students, our families, our educators, everybody have to deal with. And it was a little bit of a dysfunctional system before COVID hit, but COVID was kind of like a bomb. And now we're seeing constantly in the media about the levels of anxiety that students are facing. Can you talk to us a little bit about what you guys are doing to, to kind of meet that need?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:18:46]:
Yeah. I mean, I think that that description I just got a little chill when you said COVID has a bomb because I think that that it really did kind of explode onto the scene and did seem to drop out of the sky in some way. You know, one of the ways I think about what happened during COVID was that for a while and I and I think it's actually still true, but it's receded into the background a bit. But I think it's really you know, there's typically been a gap between the experience of trauma that the adults in the building have had and that the children have had coming in. And I think COVID shrunk that gap where all of a sudden that the, you know, the the fear and the trauma that everyone was experiencing, certainly in New York City, the I mean, we didn't leave our home for 4 months. Right? There were, you know, trucks outside the morgues. No one was going you know, it was you were scared. If you were human and you were alive, you were scared.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:19:40]:
And then that meant everybody, teacher, child, young, old. It was a very fraught and fearful time. And I think that coming out of that, there are still, you know, these these strands of that same anxiety. I I do think you know, again, we we try to address it from the point of view of going to first to the adults in the school building and back to that school climate question. Like, how are where are the other support systems in place for teachers? And we do this for our own staff within the organization. Right? It's not a lot of people talk about where you have to have self care, self care, self care. Well, that also puts a lot of pressure on the individual. What's being made available within your institution that you run for people to to to be cared for? How do you create careful experiences of care and wellness? Some of the a lot of the schools now that we have in, we have what we set up as these sort of wellness rooms.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:20:39]:
It's certainly something that's talked about and and I think it's probably done in a lot of different cities and states. But in New York City, there used to be these rooms when students were, you know, having a bad day, and they they call them save rooms. Were, you know, having a bad day, and they they call them save rooms instead of suspending. So right? They kinda look like, you know, someone got the bad assignment to have to stand there and sit in the room over the kids who would otherwise have been sent home, but you don't send kids home anymore. So, like, this kind of thing. Those got flipped around, and we really did a lot of work with a number of our schools to turn those into, like, wellness experiences for people that they then would go to proactively ahead of an experience where, like, I feel like I'm losing it. I gotta take a break. And there's procedures for how you know, you can't just walk in in between classes and goof off.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:21:25]:
There is a way to establish that the protocols around really moving into that kind of space. And once you set those protocols and we set those protocols in motion, they got really taken seriously. One of the things that I've learned over, you know, all of the years that I've worked with counseling in school is that when you create a clear structure and standards for young people, they will adhere to them and they will rise to them. If you are not clear and if your standards are based on the lowest common denominator, they will be murky and they will reach for the lowest common denominator. And when you set it high, they go high and they even go higher. And it's a it takes some stamina to sort of hold until that takes hold, but it really, really works, and and it's really powerful. So I think, again, back to your question around how do we respond to what happened in COVID. We really start with wellness for ourselves, wellness for the adults so they can then again be available for the young people.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:22:24]:
Because I think what we saw coming right out of COVID, it was I mean, suspension started going up. Things started getting real you know, attendance was way down, children not wanting to come to school, parents afraid to send their kids to school still, all kinds of different dynamics that were based on, you know, the fear that was there. And I think the fear was what was in the adults because we weren't confident that we knew what to do, and we weren't feeling good ourselves about ourselves, afraid about our parents. You know, if you live in a multigenerational home or you had a mother and a father and a nursing home, all these things that were on our minds meant that we had very little left to give to the young people coming to school who then had that much more that they needed. So it really was the idea of how do we rebuild and reform that capacity by taking care of the adults in the school community so that they can be available for the children. And and and that that has had a very positive effect as we've developed now, know, 4 years essentially out from from the pandemic.

Liza Holland [00:23:25]:
I love what you talked about for the students and kinda making it more of a proactive and maybe an opportunity to talk about how you regulate and process your emotions, You know, kinda building their toolkit. They call them safe rooms here in Kentucky, and it it almost got to be a joke because it really turned out to be, like, in school detention as opposed to something productive. And I think that was the original intent and why they named it that way. But I really love that whole concept because if kids have too much else on their mind and they're not open to learning, they should be able to go to a place where they can help get help to be able to to get to a better place for that.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:24:07]:
And part of that, Liza, just to I'm sorry. Just to interrupt. But part of that was actually changing the physical structure of those rooms.

Liza Holland [00:24:14]:
Okay. Tell us about it.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:24:15]:
Yeah. Actually investing in, you know, carpets, into taking out the the, fluorescent lighting and putting in some other lighting, putting up different kinds of images on the walls, having soft furnishing furniture in the room, not the the hard desk that would normally be there. You know, very having one of our places, they use these things. I wanna say, like, they create different aromas. Right? A kind of an oil thing or something like that, infusion sensory go around. I mean, there's a there's a a an organization called Sensory Elsewhere, which sets up actually does this in hospitals for surgeons to kinda have a different room to go to in order to decompress from the from stress that they go through. So we took some lessons from that. But in some of just, you know, the the physical landscapes that you can kinda project onto a wall, different things that just really make it a very different space.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:25:09]:
It's not just the words that someone might greet you with. Those are certainly important, and they create a context. But the physical experience being unique and different and really based on things that are centering and calming for students, and it really works.

Liza Holland [00:25:25]:
Are you doing the same types of things for teachers, you know, like in the teachers' break rooms and that sort of thing?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:25:30]:
Absolutely.

Liza Holland [00:25:31]:
What kinds of thing I think a lot of times, principals are like, well, I'd really like to do something, but I have no idea what I would do. You have any examples of some neat things that teachers have particularly appreciated?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:25:41]:
You know, they've been like I said, they've been some simple things like changing the lighting. There's been some things like a few places we put in a few aquariums so that there's just, like, you know, this calming little fish thing going on there. Right? People can look at that, and you kinda get moved away. We don't we haven't done this, but I know in New York, there are a couple of programs that actually have, and you may have had this in Kentucky where they have groups that bring in puppies for students that are dysregulated, and they can kinda play with a puppy for a little bit. Younger kids, they do that with again, that's not our piece, but that's been effective in other places. But in teacher rooms, it's been there'll be signs in some of the rooms where it's like they ask people to leave their phones out, not to bring their phones in, you know, for the teachers to have it just be a quiet space where anybody in there is just kind of meditating or what have you. In some places, that works. I think that when you make that state you make a statement when you set up a room like that, and you invest in it, and you ask people what will help you feel calming and grounded in the space.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:26:43]:
And we did some of that, and we put a few of those things in there. And, again, as an administrator or a principal in the school, when you do that, teachers really appreciate that because they know that, you know, there are all kinds of other agendas that they have to adhere to, that the principal has to adhere to. When they make that one of their priorities for you, you know, it really it it it means a lot. It means a lot to to the teachers. And I know in our organization, we do it with our staff as well. It means a lot to them.

Liza Holland [00:27:10]:
That's marvelous. So I love that you guys are an outside agency partnering really well with the schools. But that can also kinda create some difficulties in and of itself. What have been the challenges that you faced in trying to be able to integrate into the schools and, you know, kind of become a part of how school is being done?

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:27:33]:
I think the the the 2 critical components, one is certainly the principle of any school is a, you know, is is a key player in that. And if they're if they really understand what we're there to do and are willing to be open to, you know, engaging with us, we don't come in saying we're the experts. Here's what you have to do. I'm not gonna give you a blueprint. Now do 1, 2, 3. You'll be done. But I am gonna say, you know, I wanna be at the table with you when you're making some bigger decision. I wanna sort of hear what your what your plan is for your school, what your vision is.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:28:05]:
And and I wanna talk to you about when I have observations of things that I think maybe are challenging the vision that you have or not realizing what and then I want you to be open to having that conversation with me. And the principle is and we can, you know, start to make some inroads on that. That's a great indicator, a great sign. I think the other area, you know, which is gonna be of no surprise, I mean, as an outside agency, of course. Right? I see you already anticipating. I'm going to say it's the funding. Right? Able to be a consistent presence. So we wanna make sure that when we're creating that partnership, that we are building in some sustainability practices, that there are some other people that are getting the understanding of how it is that we're seeing things and what it is that we're doing.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:28:50]:
Knowing that if the funding does go away for whatever reason, the skill set that we have to interact with our clinical ability isn't necessarily gonna be shared. But some of the systemic ways in which we thought about or implemented programming and practices like the safe room we were just talking about or other things, those are things that, right, they can be evergreen and not necessarily only a tie to when it is that we're there. So, you know, we we we typically, you know, are able to maintain our relationships over a long period of time. But, unfortunately, when those relationships shift, it's not usually because everyone's thought, well, that problem is solved. It's usually because everyone was like, well, we have to shift the where we put the funds this year.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:29:34]:
You know, and that is so real. There are so many different challenges that schools face. They do. They're faced with that, well, we may have to give up one thing in order to do another, and you may there's a lot of making do, which is really unfortunate. So, that kinda leads into my last question, which is tell me from your perspective, what would you like decision makers to know? And you can define decision makers however you would like to.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:30:01]:
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think some of what I said I I I think I like decision makers to appreciate the the role that schools have both in socializing and in in developing healthy emotional experiences for for children and for adults, and also the role that schools have as what we call Constantine School Centers of Healing that, you know, people generation after generation is going to come to those buildings. Building in practices, building in elements of the culture of those buildings that educate, that socialize, that heal, that build emotional wellness, you know, just is an important thing to do so that when you're creating policies or creating structures, if those are part and parcel of what you're doing along with, you know, all of the resources that you need for people to leave with information they didn't have when they got there so that they can be better problem solvers and know more and appreciate one of a bigger view of the world because they've, you know, read the good books or they understand how numbers work or they understand how the sun revolves around this the, you know, the the cosmos or whatever we need to learn that you want them to learn. All that's super important too. And I think we spent most of our experience figuring out the best ways to do that. I'd like us to spend more time understanding how do we make the social emotional parts of the school system work. One of the things people who talk to me about this have heard me say a bunch, so your listeners will get to hear me say now. You know, you take 300 people, adults, kids across generations, put them in a building for 8 hours a day for a 183 days a year.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:31:48]:
2 things are definitely gonna happen. A social order is gonna emerge. People's emotions are gonna be impacted by that experience. The thing that maybe is gonna happen is that they'll leave with more information about some, you know, some knowledge that they that they had that they didn't have. So why don't we concentrate a little bit more on the 2 things that we know are going to happen and let them be intentional about how we socialize and about how we create emotional experiences. And then also pay continue to pay attention to how we make sure the information they get is important information that they can, you know, go into life with well well suited to be productive citizens.

Liza Holland [00:32:26]:
Well, that is a great end to a really good conversation. Thank you so much, Kevin, for being a guest with us to here today.

Kevin Dahill-Fuchel [00:32:34]:
Thank you, Liza. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Liza Holland [00:32:38]:
Thank you so much

Liza Holland [00:32:39]:
for listening to this episode of Education Perspectives.

Liza Holland [00:32:42]:
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