Bridging Education and Real-Life Experiences: The Winchendon School's Kamilah Ayele

Kalimah Fergus Ayele

Head of Campus

The Winchendon School

 Quote of the Podcast: 

"Education is for improving the lives of others and for leaving your community and world better than you found it." 

--- Marian Wright Edelman, Former president and the Children's Defense Fund

Introduction of Guest BIO – 

Kalimah Fergus Ayele is the Head of NYC Campus for The Winchendon School, an oasis in the heart of Manhattan where students are guided through real-world learning to connect with their passion through a unique city-wide field study program. Her experience in schools started as a Peace Corps Volunteer where she taught Chemistry in East Africa and over her 30 year career, she has taught in 5 countries. She earned her bachelor's degree in Chemistry at Stanford University and masters degrees at Teachers College Columbia University, including an Ed M in Organization Leadership through the Klingenstein program. A native of Brooklyn, NY, Kalimah Fergus Ayele has always been committed to building thriving, inclusive communities where participants experience a sense of belonging and have the opportunity to build the necessary tools to design and create a more equitable world.

Interview

Agents of Change: Leaders/Innovators

•  30,000 Ft. View – Why do we, as a society invest in education?
• What drew you to education?
• innovative schools and using design thinking techniques to "design for belonging" in school communities.
• What are the biggest challenges to you?
• What would you like decision-makers to know?

Podcast/book shoutouts

Shout out to "The Management Center" a training program that helps organization design and implement equitable management systems; 

"The Landscape Model for Learning"

"What School Could Be" 

for their commitment to moving the conversation about innovation in education forward.

Transcript

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:00:02]:
Welcome to education perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving such huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele is the Head of NYC Campus for The Winchendon School, an oasis in the heart of Manhattan where students are guided through real-world learning to connect with their passion through a unique city-wide field study program. Her experience in schools started as a Peace Corps Volunteer where she taught Chemistry in East Africa and over her 30 year career, she has taught in 5 countries. She earned her bachelor's degree in Chemistry at Stanford University and masters degrees at Teachers College Columbia University, including an Ed M in Organization Leadership through the Klingenstein program. A native of Brooklyn, NY, Kalimah Fergus Ayele has always been committed to building thriving, inclusive communities where participants experience a sense of belonging and have the opportunity to build the necessary tools to design and create a more equitable world.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:00:28]:
So, Kaleema, welcome to Education Perspectives.

Liza Holland [00:00:31]:
Thank you. Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:00:36]:
Well, I am so excited to learn more about your school. The more I read about it, the more I really loved it. Aw. First question I ask everyone is tell me from, like, a 30,000 foot view, why do you think that we as a society should invest in education?

Liza Holland [00:00:54]:
So for me, it really comes down to the way that we wanna support the growth and well-being of our children. And in this country in particular, we have quite a charge. Right? Saying, that we are invested in everyone being able to pursue life and liberty and pursuit of happiness as well. And, from where I sit, education still is one of the best ways for us to achieve that goal. So we're you know, I know there are a myriad of other ways that we can engage, as a community with varying ways of growing and learning. But at this point in time, education still seems to be the most, effective way that we can reach the maximum number of people.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:01:51]:
We are kind of unique in that way, aren't we? Not, wanting to educate absolutely everybody. So that's marvelous. So tell me what drew you to be involved in education this way.

Liza Holland [00:02:03]:
So I I guess I would say, because I do think it's common for most educators. So I I, you know, I can't speak for all, but I would say for many, similar to what I find from many others, it's because of my own experience in education. So I was born to, parents who actually came from two dissimilar not the same background, very, different backgrounds. And one immigrated from The Caribbean and really grew up in an impoverished background in The Caribbean. And so, my grandparents on my paternal side didn't necessarily have the opportunity, to achieve, much in terms of education. And then on the other side, on my mother's side, who she was born in in the segregated South of The United States. And, also, same thing, her parents were not given the opportunity to achieve much in terms of education. And so having those two, sort of experiences, I was able to see sort of even in my own life, how quickly things can change in a generation.

Liza Holland [00:03:19]:
Right? So even though both sets of grandparents did not, achieve a high school, education, at least not initially, both of my parents ended up, getting college degrees. And to to be able to see that, I think, is is is quite remarkable. In so many parts of the world, a person's quality of life and social class and their opportunities really don't change that dramatically from one generation to the next. So I'm and I recognize that that's not the only way. Again, I realized that there are many ways for, individuals to achieve success, but it does still seem to be a a really effective way of shifting the odds in one's favor, I would say. And I do think that that's something, that is unique and and should be cherished.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:04:16]:
Great answer. I tell you. That's, very, very insightful. I I I agree with you wholeheartedly. So now I get to get to this wonderful meat and potatoes of the Winchendon School. Tell me, how did the concept start? How long have you been going? And then we'll get into what makes it really unique.

Liza Holland [00:04:38]:
Oh, definitely. So I have to tell you, I'm I'm so intrigued by just the history of of the school as an institution. Right? So the Winton School was actually started almost one hundred years ago. And it's actually our centennial celebration is coming up in the next year. So we'll be celebrating that hundred year anniversary. And it really was coming out of this place of an educator recognizing what we're doing isn't working for all of our children. And, and, obviously, that's something we are still struggling with. Right? But for someone to to sort of pick up on that a hundred years ago, and at the time, we didn't know a lot about neurodiversity.

Liza Holland [00:05:26]:
Right? People weren't really talking about it. But for someone to say, wait. There's a lot of these young men, and and, you know, now we know that to be ADHD or what have you. But at that time, you just said this isn't working. Right? We're trying to get them to sit in a classroom for eight to ten hours a day, and we just expect, this to work out for them, and it's not working. We can do something different. And so that idea of doing something different really has been baked into the ethos of the institution. And so you fast forward now about ten years ago, and and I'm just gonna name the two educators on the Winchendon School campus.

Liza Holland [00:06:10]:
Winchendon School is located in Western Massachusetts. And so two educators, Sean Duncan and Jeremy Key, begin to think about how can we make the educational experience more relevant to our students. It's a boarding school. And we want them to be able to connect what they're experiencing in the classroom to what experience will be like in the real world because this is not it's not enough to have it be so so separate from, you know, the real life experience. And so they actually created initially this idea as as an incubator. So a school within a school, this program started to really figure out ways to connect students with these larger ideas of of justice, of service, and recognizing that the way that you can do that, not that this is something that we didn't know, is by having students have real world experiences. Right? Travel the world, see other places, get outside of the little sphere of the world that you exist within. And, I'm gonna speed through a little bit because that then turned into, a larger program to envelop the entire school.

Liza Holland [00:07:30]:
Right? Once they saw how successful it was sort of working with a small group. And then that led to the opening of where I am now, which is a satellite campus in New York City. But, again, the same vein of how do we get students to connect with the world around them? So the so the model of our satellite campus is actually that the city is our campus. We have access to all the resources of New York City. So why not leverage those in order to move our educational frame forward? And and I I think about, I don't know if you read braiding sweetgrass, but I think about this idea of we are all stewards of the land that we're on. And so if we if we truly want our young people to embrace their responsibility, they actually have to know what it is that they're embracing. They have to feel some connection and having the experiences that they have. So part of what we do here at the Winchendon School New York City campus is the students are off campus every week.

Liza Holland [00:08:36]:
They're out in the field. They're going to different locations around the city, and they're really having an opportunity to savor the cities. And and I think part of it I mean, it sounds cheesy, but you savor the world so that you wanna save the world. Right? So so the idea of having them connect with their city, connect with each other, and then that leads to them really deepening them their connection with themselves. They they get to explore what it is that they enjoy, what they don't enjoy, and they won't know that unless they have an opportunity to try different things out. And by that, I mean all the things. Right? Building boats and engineering, traveling to the UN, and they've they've just had so many so many wonderful experiences through we call it the iLab program. And they just have an opportunity really, to really learn from this unique place that we call home, which is New York City.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:09:32]:
What a fantastic notion. And I love the fact that it's coming out of an organization that is almost a hundred years old. You know? I mean, literally, when I first read through this, I thought, thought, oh, well, this must be a fairly new organization because they're doing so many interesting things, and, no, you're just really adapting to the times. That is phenomenal. Tell me a little bit about how, students are really taking charge of their learning under your model.

Liza Holland [00:10:01]:
Oh, yes. Definitely. I mean, I think what's nice too is that the way that we've structured the iLab program, we call it, is that it actually shifts throughout the year. So at the start of the year, the experiences that the students have are connected to their course curriculum. So it really is, supplementary to what they're learning in the classroom. They, you know for example, this year, I'm teaching biology. So we'll be learning about DNA and then take them to a lab where they'll be able to to do a DNA forensic lab experience. And then that way, there's a connection there.

Liza Holland [00:10:41]:
But then we switch and, actually, as of this recording time, we're actually making that switch this week. And we switch it to give students an opportunity to choose one of a few different thematic options. Because now the idea is, yes. In the beginning, you just did whatever was curated for you by your classroom teacher, but now we wanna give you the choice to to say, what do you wanna engage in over an extended period of time? And what we're able to do with the we call it the iLab thread portion is we're able to present a few options for students. One is for them to be able to engage in service here in the city. Right? So we connect with the service partner, and then the students can have some time that they can engage in in community service, which is always a wonderful way to get someone sort of out of themselves and and be able to to contribute. Right? It's it's great for mental health. All the all the research research is is there to show that.

Liza Holland [00:11:44]:
And then we have another option for students, which is project based learning. Right? And so, again, this idea of giving students the opportunity to design and create something. And so they have, again, that that prolonged period of time where they can develop their ideas and and have something come into fruition. And then the the final option is, you know, very similar to what they had done in the fall, but an opportunity to do the to go out on those trips. But there's usually a theme connecting those trips, and so they'll stay with that group and they'll go out with the with those faculty members, according to that theme. So giving them that option is part of them having the autonomy of saying, hey. This is something that I really wanna engage with. And then that works toward at the end of the year where, and and again, you know, most educators will will know that you you we hit this sort of interesting time at the end of the year if you're in in schools where the graduates leave before the school year has ended.

Liza Holland [00:12:49]:
We have that, graduation, you know, the third week in May, and then you still have another few weeks. And so in most schools, there's this huge energy drop. When kids come back, the rest of the kids are like, why am I still here? Well, that doesn't happen for us because we we have another program that starts, which is a three week interdisciplinary course where the students actually build toward a symposium that they get to share with the community members and with the parents, about what they've been learning. And so, again, these opportunities where there's increasingly opportune there's an increasing opportunity for students to have some autonomy in what they wanna engage in, but also some creativity and some innovation about what that looks like. And you really do see over time that that confidence and, like, this is who I am. This is what really this is what I'm really passionate about. And for some of our students, we actually especially by the time they get to be, juniors or seniors, they actually decide they wanna engage in an internship that they found because they've made some relationship or some connection, outside of school. And so they have that option as well, during those two during that iLab thread and that final, we call it collab at the end of the year.

Liza Holland [00:14:14]:
If they have an internship or a job, they can actually use that time to engage in that.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:14:21]:
That is marvelous. I love that, you know, I feel like that in this day and age, students need to be drivers of their own learning because the chain the pace of change is so fast. Right? You have to be a lifelong learner. You can't rely on what what you've been taught in school anymore. I heard one statistic that in the nineteen seventies, a full education, k through 12 plus college, ought to hold you for about thirty years.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:14:54]:
Okay.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:14:54]:
That statistic now is eighteen months.

Liza Holland [00:14:58]:
Wow. That's so interesting. Yes. And I think I'm fascinated by the fact that they've actually figured out the amount of time. Right? Yeah. Like, how much time it will take before what you have learned becomes obsolete. And and it's and and we're seeing it. Right? We're seeing a year and a half.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:15:19]:
We don't even know what the world will look like. A year and a half from this moment.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:15:25]:
Crazy? I just yeah. But that whole piece of preparing kids for the new world that we live in, I really like the fact that, you mentioned trying to incorporate design thinking into your coursework. Can you talk to me a little bit about kind of how that came about and how the kids are receiving it?

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:15:45]:
So yeah. So it's been it's been an ongoing, you know, passion and interest of mine when I first came across you know, it's it's sometimes I think it is a little unfortunate how our industries can be siloed, you know, because I know design thinking has been a part of of the business world for quite some time. And it wasn't until I was actually I was actually working as an international teacher for about a decade, before returning to New York. And I was, teaching in Cairo, Egypt. And I ended up it was so well, that's a that's an entirely different podcast.

Liza Holland [00:16:32]:
I know. I know. I'm like, alright. I wanna know that story now.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:16:35]:
I know. And, you know, as is common when you, live and work overseas, you end up connecting with people in different industries, which is which is wonderful. Right? It's sort of you end up, you know, meeting Americans who are there for, so many different reasons, you know, in a way that doesn't necessarily happen when you're home because you, you know, especially as an adult. Right? You kinda have your set group of friends. And and and so when you're overseas, you kinda have to break out of that, right, just to just to create a social, circle for yourself. So I ended up meeting another American who was a professor at the the American University of Cairo. And, she ended up telling me about this two day design thinking workshop. And so I go to this workshop, and when I tell you, it just opened up my mind completely.

Liza Holland [00:17:31]:
I'd always been quite interested in service, and and in a lot of ways, my own connection to services is probably a lot of the reason why I got into education to begin with. But I remember going through that workshop and just having it really shift the way I thought about what was possible even in education. And so I ended up following up with one other course. It was through the University of Virginia, but it was online. But it was related to this idea of, like, how do we use design thinking for innovation? Because, again, like most educators, we knew. We were like, something's gotta give. We gotta figure out how to make these changes. And then the third piece, I know it seems like design design design, but it it did.

Liza Holland [00:18:18]:
It's like, like, all of these pieces kinda came together because when I started when I returned to New York City and I ended up attending one of the larger organizations for independent school, the the National Association Association of Independent School has an annual, people of colors conference every year. And so I attended that first year. It was actually online, but I attended it online. And one of the presentations, I actually did one of the extended ones, was again on this concept of liberatory design and using design thinking tools in it. Because it was for educators, they had figured out how to tailor some of these materials. And so for me, that was where everything kinda clicked together. And I was able to see, okay, so here's the connection between how we think about design. And I know there's a lot of, work happening at the Stanford Design School as well, which has been really exciting.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:19:16]:
And so one of those books is a creative confidence book that I have that I've really loved, has really helped me to see how do we bring those elements in so that we can make those shifts small or large. Mhmm. It's not easy. Right? But it's possible, and I do think that we have the the tools to do it. Right? So sometimes it's like, okay. We have the tools. Do we have the desire? And then some of it on, you know, comes down to capacity. Like, do we have the capacity to make this happen as well? And so for me, it's always about asking those questions and seeing how we can just make those shifts.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:19:55]:
Now education, like most systems, is very resilient. Right? So very there is a lot of resistance to these changes, but that's part of the reason why I'm so excited to be part of an institution, a school, an organization where innovation has has been baked into the culture. Right? So that people aren't afraid of changing and shifting as things need to adapt and evolve. It's been it's been wonderful.

Liza Holland [00:20:27]:
Well, I look at your model, and it's like, this is what I dream about for schools to to change and and become and do. And so, you know, that's another thing. Tell me a little bit about, yes, it was baked into the culture, but some of these changes are quite radical in comparison to what we've been doing for a hundred years. What kind of challenges did you face as far as, you know, the the the faculty, the systems that you had in place? What kind of adaptations did you have to, to work on?

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:21:00]:
I mean, there's always going to be that. Right? Because we you know? And I think that's one of the things that we've always talked about why when people say, why is it so difficult to change in education? It's like, yeah. Because it's one of the things where we sort of do it the way it was done for us. Right? I am I I still remember what it was like to be in school, and so what are the things that I'm gonna do? And and a lot of those practices kinda do get handed down in that way. But but one of the beauties, like I said, is that once we've said, okay. This is part of the program. This is this is this is actually, you know, when we say we're doing the iLab, this is what we're committed to doing. And and and then it it gives us some flexibility because I know a lot of times too with with schools and education, the resistance is not always internal.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:21:49]:
Sometimes it is external. Right? And so you do have to think about the families and and what their needs are and how that may be in conflict with some of the changes because a lot of times people are they get nervous. Right? They're scared. They're like, hey. This isn't this is my child's future you're talking about. Right? So I think about, you know, even and I I don't know if you've seen that, you know, the what schools can be now has it for free, but it's, most likely to succeed. It's the documentary about the yes. Exactly.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:22:22]:
The project based learning. And and so I think about there's a scene there where there's that conversation with between the parent and the teacher, and they're really, you know, really having that important dialogue. And and even with the teacher and the students, right, an important dialogue where where you could see them just saying, but we're just not sure. Right? And I and I do think what's what we have the benefit of, at least now, because the we are seven years old, the satellite in New York City, is there's proof of concept. Right? We've had students graduate. We've had students go on to be successful in college. They come back. They can tell their stories.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:23:03]:
And so there's enough of a proof of concept there that it's not like people are wholehearted to be feeling like, okay. There's they don't know what they're getting out of the process, and that's that's also an important part because we still are so invested in what we know the systems that we trust, that we've grown up with. And so, yeah, parents wanna know. Just make sure that my child can get to the next step, that whatever you're doing is preparing them to be successful moving forward. And so I get that that's a really, really important part of it, and I think it's okay to just acknowledge that. Like, yes, there is a lot of resistance because people are afraid of the unknown, and they're not sure how it's gonna work out in the end. And none of us are. Well, you know, we just said that.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:23:50]:
We don't even know what a year and a half from now is gonna look like. Right? And so a lot of times, we cling to the familiar, especially when things are are changing so rapidly. So I I totally get that. I would say, you know and, again, what's wonderful is that we do, you know, again, make it very clear what our program is when people come visit us, so there's no surprises. So I would have to say that that is one of the things that we don't have to deal with is is somebody being like, wait. You're taking my child where? Because they've already said, okay. We're all in on what you all are doing, and and we love the idea of it. But we do recognize that there are you know, there is a little bit of that, you know, sort of resistance to change.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:24:39]:
Right? And I feel and it's interesting because I I do think about how how much you know, sometimes our mindset is it becomes like a security blanket. Right. It's very hard to change to change our minds about things.

Liza Holland [00:24:54]:
And my experience is that the problems come more from the adults than the students.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:24:59]:
Exactly. You

Liza Holland [00:25:00]:
know? And so we got and sometimes we have to get out of our own way. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know, speaking of change and that sort of a thing, using the city as your, your world there, that means creating a lot of partnerships that didn't typically exist. Right? So what kinds of reception did you get with trying to bring kids in like this, and how do you work with your with your partners to make sure that they the trips are engaging, that, you know, that this it's one thing to have a tour around the facility. Right? There's another Yeah. Somehow engaging them in some sort of an activity or, you know, really helping to maybe have a dialogue. Tell me a little bit about your experience with that.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:25:48]:
Oh, definitely. And, you know, this is one of those moments where I almost wish that I had, the the team here because as I mentioned, I joined the program that had already you know what I mean? There was the the startup team, which was Sean Duncan and and Jared McKee, really did so much of that heavy lifting at the beginning. Right? Which is which is as you describe. It's gonna be you know, because people are gonna be like, who? What? What do you want me to kind of think? And the benefit of being in New York City, like I said, is that some of those programs already you know, there's already the science museums, and there's already the math museum. And then, you know, so there are spaces that already have educational programming in place. So what's nice is you're not always starting from scratch. But then as you mentioned, there are some times where you really do have to talk them into, hey. This is what we're trying to do.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:26:45]:
It's gonna be great. And then you say to the kids, please behave yourself because we really wanna be able to come back. And that's okay. Like, you know, they're teenagers. So, you know, there'll be there'll be things. And then just building that confidence. Right? Because, again, it is New York City and, you know, and I'm doing it too. Right? I'm taking the kids on the subway, and we've got the MetroCard.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:27:09]:
And I'm like, does everybody know what's stop to get on and get off and, you know, you're doing all the things. And so there is a lot of that. But when you see the impact that it has on the students and the engagement, I will even say from that first trip that you take, the end the way that the energy shifts in the classroom just from the students having had the experience that shared experience with each other, it's like you're sold. You know what I mean? You go from feel you know, because they're teenagers, they're awkward. Oh, I don't wanna talk to that person because I don't I'll just sit this is my partner, and I'm only gonna talk to them. And then after the first trip where everybody's on the subway together, and it's like, everybody's gotta figure out where they are, where they're going. Now all of a sudden, it kinda gels the group, and it does really shift even the energy, I would say, in the community. Right? Because what happens I'll, I'll just look at it over the course of the week.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:28:13]:
So, you know, we start school on Monday. People are like, I hear grumble, grumble. Right? Our field days are on Thursday. So there's usually just, like, you know, the three full days of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, but then Thursday where you would think, okay. Now people are sort of, like, dragging to the end of the week. They kinda have this to look forward to. And and because it's on Thursday, right, most likely during class on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, it's been a buildup toward what's gonna happen. And like I said, they go out.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:28:47]:
They have this experience. And so Friday, rather than being like, oh, I you know, we gotta get out of here. It's the weekend. They just had this wonderful connecting experience together. And so on Fridays, Fridays are actually, like, a really nice day on campus. Right? Because people are actually like, yeah. It wasn't that you know, whatever. They wanna exchange stories with each other or what have you because they might have friends who weren't with them on the experience that previous afternoon.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:29:14]:
So it really is you know, I can't I can't speak more highly of of the work that it that that is being done and how it's impacting the experience of the students, especially now. Right? When you see our young people are so connected. I don't wanna take anything away from the wonders that we have with technology, all the information we have at our fingertips. But for some of them, they have a hard time even looking up from the screen. Right? It's so hard to get them to engage, and that's what these experiences do. It kind of forces them to be present because they have to. They have to know where they are and what they're going. They're doing something new and different.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:29:51]:
And just having that, you know, that experience really does give them that opportunity to unplug in a way and disconnect their own humanity, which I think is so needed, not just for young people too. I mean, we're all

Liza Holland [00:30:07]:
struggling with

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:30:08]:
it. It, but

Liza Holland [00:30:08]:
critical across the board. A lot of us adults, again, are too stuck to our phones.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:30:13]:
Exactly.

Liza Holland [00:30:15]:
So tell me a little bit because, you know, your your academics are always gonna be so how do you assess this stuff? How do you know that you are succeeding, etcetera, etcetera? Tell me a little bit about how you try to incorporate this experiential learning into your assessment system.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:30:31]:
Well, I should I should say, right, it's still part of the class. So the experience that they had I mean, and and I could even say, you know, because I I have a stem teaching background, so I can speak from that perspective. What they would have done would count as a lab, the same way I would have used an extended lab period in class. There'll be an assignment. There'll be a grade. In other courses, there might be some sort of project connected to the experience that they had. And so it still is part of the course, and they you know, we have all the other traditional assessment. Right? There's the test and the quizzes and the homework and the you know? I know it's been a while for some of us, but, yes, all the things, the essays All

Liza Holland [00:31:11]:
the settings.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:31:12]:
All of the things, and so that is still a part of it. That is still a really, really big part of it. Now the collab at the end, that three week interdisciplinary is still a course as well. So I just wanna make it clear that these are still considered to be courses where the the faculty members have, you know, set expectations, and they've said, this is what your this is what your assignment is looking like, and this is how you're gonna be graded, and there's a rubric. And all of those things are being assessed in that traditional way. So it still is in that respect, very structured approach to education.

Liza Holland [00:31:53]:
I ruffle some feathers sometimes because I think to some extent for what we need to have and what kids need to be able to be and do and experience and all that kind of thing, we're using old measures. You know? Are are we measuring what we really want to to get out of it? And so that's always a little bit of, you know, that whole assessment piece. Because, yes, you want accountability. Yes, you wanna be able to prove. Yes, you wanna have your alumni come back and go, this prepared me so well. It was fantastic, blah blah blah. But, you know, even our higher education institutions are not you know, according to business and industry, they're not producing the the the the the students with the skill sets that they're hoping to have to succeed in business. So this this whole switch back and forth is it's just a really tough line to to navigate.

Liza Holland [00:32:50]:
Right?

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:32:51]:
Yes. And I and I'm never a fan of, like, sort of passing the buck. Right? There's a lot of people who say, yeah. Well, they have to change it at this level, and then we can change it at our level. Because you're right. It has to happen at every level. And I totally agree with you. We we're not we're not setting ourselves up in a way to measure engagement.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:33:11]:
Like, can this person actually have a meaningful connection, a relationship, a conversation about a difficult topic with another human being. And so even though we are addressing those things and with much intention and commitment, I should add, that's not part of what gets assessed. Right? That's not part of their transcript. And so just to give you an example, you know, as you know, we're in a very tough time, you know, politically and socially here in in The US. And so their moments have come up, right, particularly after after the election. It was one that stands out where the students are just carrying a lot. They're carrying a lot of thoughts and ideas and emotions, and and the school really has become that central community point. Right? I know a lot of conversation around this is happening where it's like, yeah.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:34:08]:
We used to have multiple spaces for people to engage and and a lot of those spaces, you know, during the pandemic, we've lost a lot of those spaces. And so the student school is kind of the last remaining. And so all of that falls to us. And and, you know, like, again, we're just kind of like, okay, so how do we respond? And so our dean of success here, her name is Rachel. Again, in responding to the moment and what the students need and put together a plan that we have every week built into our program, we do have time carved out for connection. Right? Whether it be we call it conference time, but it's an opportunity for students to engage with their teachers. But we also have this sort of gathering time that we usually have the students break up into grade level groups to deal with any topics related to health. Right? What are the things that really need to be addressed that, again, aren't necessarily assessed.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:35:08]:
But in this moment, we were able to put together a plan where we said to the students again, letting them take responsibility for their needs, you choose the space that you need in this moment. There was one option for, debate. Some students really just needed a space to talk about the issues that are coming up and really have an opportunity to just hash it out. Right? And and, you know, with support, they wanted it to be supported by they wanted adults in the room. Right? They wanted those conversations to be supported. And then we had another space where it was like, you just wanna sit and process what you're feeling quietly. Maybe you wanna do your own reflection writing. And then in another space, it was set up more for artistic.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:35:58]:
It was like, okay. Well, we'll have some art material. We'll have some things there for you to do some coloring or some ways that you could just work through. And so, you know, I mean, these again, we're preparing you to take ownership of your own process. Right? What do you need in the moment? And, of course, the yes and no. I'll just go with my friend's vote. That's fine. You're making a conscious decision to be with your friend at this time.

Liza Holland [00:36:22]:
That's And you have that choice.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:36:23]:
Right? Have that choice. And so we've done that. That. Yes. Yeah.

Liza Holland [00:36:29]:
And that's giving them tools too to be able to manage all of these big thoughts and feelings and all that kind of a thing, and we do not do that. Oh, I love it.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:36:40]:
Exactly. And and, like, and we wanna keep building on that. Right? And so we're also asking the students to so, you know, we've we've we've selected a couple students, and and some of whom have been a little bit more outspoken about how we could do that. Well, like, once they kinda said it was like, oh, yeah. Can we try this? And once we saw that they were, like, really invested in improving the practice that we're creating, we're like, okay. So why don't we have you all come together and figure out the ways in which you want these you know, whether it be setting norms for the conversations that you're having. So really giving them the opportunity to, design those spaces for themselves because they do. They wanna they wanna be able to express themselves.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:37:28]:
They wanna felt they wanna feel seen. They wanna be heard, and they wanna be respected, and they wanna be able to do that in a community where they don't feel like there's gonna be any harm in the process or whether they don't harm each other, right? So how do we do that? And when I when I tell you how inspired I am to see the students take the lead in wanting to be part of designing that for themselves, I'm like, okay. We're gonna be alright. It's gonna be okay. So

Liza Holland [00:38:02]:
yeah. And they're so incredibly capable. I'm working with our our local school district, with the, a portrait of a graduate type of a a program, and we are having high schoolers go through and make the presentations for the students and do all of all of that, you know, kind of taking them through the process. And it was funny because they changed how it was presented. They changed how you would approach it. They were really empowered by the fact that they could change the language. And so just to watch these kids take all of that and start to take ownership of, does this actually fit? Does you know, what what has been come up with as far as what we what we want to be able to be and do? Do we need to add? Do we need to change? I didn't understand several of the the words that were used in this because we've kinda gone through a period where the teachers had a lot of input. Now we're gonna do students.

Liza Holland [00:39:02]:
We're also gonna bring in community. But it's just so wonderful to see these students that I mean, they get it, and they are ready to take that kind of energy on. And

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:39:14]:
Isn't it great?

Liza Holland [00:39:14]:
You know? Yes. We had the first one, and the middle schoolers were really disappointed that the kids weren't coming back for a third day to be able

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:39:22]:
to help. How?

Liza Holland [00:39:24]:
This is so cool.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:39:26]:
That is really cool. Oh, I love that. I'm actually, involved in some conversations with with, my accrediting body as well around the portrait of a graduate. So I I love that idea. That's yeah. I'll probably have to borrow that one too because as the more we can get them involved in in taking ownership of it, the more, yeah, the the better off we'll be. Right? It's great.

Liza Holland [00:39:55]:
Very, very cool. Happy to share anything that we've been doing with it with you on that one too.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:40:00]:
Oh, I'd appreciate that. Thank

Liza Holland [00:40:02]:
you. I feel like I could talk to you all day.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:40:04]:
But Same.

Liza Holland [00:40:06]:
Coming to coming to kind of a close of our our window here, I do have a final question

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:40:12]:
Yeah.

Liza Holland [00:40:13]:
Because I'm I'm so excited about the types of things that you're doing and how you're empowering your students. What would you like for decision makers to know? That could be people in the legislature. It could be, board members. It could be whoever. But as far as really moving things forward and allowing kids to take agency, what would you like decision makers to know?

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:40:36]:
Well, yeah. I think it ties back to where I started with this conversation, which is that I I really do and I don't know, you know, maybe it's just from my vantage point, but I don't feel that it's uplifted as much as I think it should be. But this idea that we are all responsible for uplifting the tenants of the declaration of independence. Right? So when we say we hold these truths to be self evident that all are created equal, that they're endowed by their creator with a certain unalienable rights, that this is an ongoing assignment. Right? This is this is an assignment that lives beyond our lifetimes. And so I do honestly think that for many of us, we haven't quite understood that it's not oh, this is not something something somebody wrote this on a piece of paper two hundred and fifty years ago, and then that was the end. It was like, no. No.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:41:35]:
No. This was the assignment when you as as soon as you saw that this was the agreement, this was the plan, then your question is just, okay. How do I move this forward? Even if it's just an inch before my time is up. And so I I think for me, that would be at the impetus of it is that regardless of what it looks like, because, again, we might not all agree on how that's supposed to look, but I do think that there's an opportunity for us to think more broadly about what it can look like, and that happened during the pandemic as well. Right? I think that was one of the shake ups for education, which is kinda like all of a sudden we had to do things differently. So it gave us an opportunity to think differently about what we were doing. And I think that's continuing even in this moment. It's like, okay.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:42:22]:
So let's get down to the basics here about what we need. We need community. We need connection, and we need to learn how to do that well. Some of the other things, honestly and and we didn't talk about AI and that kind of thing, but that's one of the things that that is huge for us in education at that moment. A lot of that, we no longer need to do the stage on the stage. You know? I'm gonna digest information and hand it to you on a silver platter. We don't need to do that anymore, but I do need to show you how to learn, how to connect, how to unlearn. Right? How how to be, you know, sort of how to decipher information that you're given.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:43:05]:
Right? How to be, you know, sort of intentional about where you're getting information and and sort of putting things together. And so a lot of that, I think, is is gonna vary in terms of what the school needs and what the communities need and what our families need. But I do think that we all need to take that charge very seriously.

Liza Holland [00:43:26]:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. And, yeah, there's so much the the pace of change is just absolutely amazing. We kind of all have to, we we can't change it, but we can adjust our sales to be able to kind of course correct and all that kind

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:43:42]:
of thing. Definitely.

Liza Holland [00:43:44]:
Thank you so very, very much.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:43:46]:
Thank you. Your marvelous

Liza Holland [00:43:50]:
school concepts, and, I I just really, you know, appreciate your your thoughtfulness.

Kalimah Fergus Ayele [00:43:56]:
Oh, Eliza, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Liza Holland [00:44:02]:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Education Perspectives. Feel free to share your thoughts on our Facebook page. Let us know which education perspectives you would like to hear or share. Please subscribe and share with your friends.