Bridging Education Gaps: Personalized Coaching and Research for Today’s Graduate Students

 Marj Atkinson

CEO

The Research Sage 

Quotes of the Podcast: 

Make yourself an example of good works with integrity, dignity and incorruptibility in your teaching. Titus 2:7 CSB 

What a school thinks about its library is a measure of what it feels about education. -Harold Howe.

Introduction of Guest BIO – 

Marj Atkinson received her Master of Library Science from Texas Woman's University in 2012 (as a true nontraditional grad student). She is an academic success coach specializing in personalized support for nontraditional graduate students and research solutions for authors, faculty, small businesses, and nonprofits. She leads engaging workshops including resource organization, literature reviews, AI best practices, and market research tools. With a background spanning libraries, financial services, IT, and nonprofits, Marj is known for helping people find exactly what they need—so if you still haven’t found what you’re looking for, ask Marj!

Interview

Agents of Change: Leaders/Innovators.

• 30,000 Ft. View – Why so we, as a society invest in education?
• What drew you to education?
• Challenges of nontraditional Grad students in online programs and the lack of resources they receive, especially at but not exclusive to under-resourced schools such as HBCUs. 
• Also discussions on AI and academic integrity. And the 
• lack of "pipelines" in so many professions from K12 to Higher Ed.
• What are the biggest challenges to you?
• What would you like decision makers to know?”

Podcast/ website/ book shoutouts

I'm featured in Careers in Library and Information Services, by Priscilla K. Shontz, editor 

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/careers-in-library-and-information-services-9798216185772/  

Podcasts: A Way with Words, an upbeat and lively public radio show and podcast about language examined through culture, history, and family. https://waywordradio.org/ 

Code Sw!tch (while NPR is still a thing). It's the fearless conversations about race that you've been waiting for. https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch 

Transcript

Liza Holland [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Education Perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving such huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education.

Liza Holland [00:00:28]:
Today.

Liza Holland [00:00:29]:
We're excited to have Marge Atkinson on the podcast. Marge received her Master of Library Science from Texas Women's University in 2012 as a true non traditional grad student. She is an academic success coach specializing in personalized support for non traditional graduate students and research solutions for authors, faculty, small businesses and and nonprofits. She leads engaging workshops including resource organization, literature reviews, AI best practices and market research tools. With a background spanning libraries, financial services, IT and nonprofits, Marge is known for helping people find exactly what they need. So if you still haven't found what you're looking for, ask Marge. So Marge, welcome to Education Perspectives. So glad to have you.

Marge Atkinson [00:01:25]:
Thank you. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Liza Holland [00:01:27]:
Well, let me kick you off with our 30,000 foot question. Why do you think that we as a society invest in education?

Marge Atkinson [00:01:35]:
It is very important that everybody be educated for government reasons, for society, for, you know, there's so many countries where women aren't educated and they, they don't contribute to society very much. So it just helps to have good education, whatever level, but preferably in my opinion, at an academic level so that you can have a good profession and contribute to society and you know, make money and pay your bills and all of the things. Education, no matter at what level, is very important. Just to have a decent society run and have, have. Democracy is really the, the best way I can think of it is it contributes to a thriving democracy as opposed to some countries where that is maybe not the case.

Liza Holland [00:02:24]:
Absolutely. So you were a non traditional grad student. Tell us what drew you to that later. Education.

Marge Atkinson [00:02:32]:
So when I, I got my degree a long, long time ago in German and I always wanted to go to library school because my mother was an English teacher. My, her, her mother was a librarian. I never knew her. I was named after her. She died before my mother when my mother was a teenager so I never met her. My dad had our whole entire wall in our dining room with books and he organized them all by Dewey decimal, so he wrote the little Dewey decimal number in the book. So it's like I have, I cannot avoid the fact that I love being a librarian. So I wanted to do that after undergrad, but then I got married and had a kid and life happened and that just didn't happen.

Marge Atkinson [00:03:10]:
So I took a pause. But I started out and this is a long story, so I started out in IT and in health services and financial services and other places that I worked. And then I took about a 10 year break to be a stay at home mom and started volunteering in my daughter's school libraries. And I was like, oh yeah, this is really what I love. This is really what I want to do. So I did that until she graduated. I actually worked in a school library at a high school, which I really loved. I didn't expect to love working around high schoolers, but it was really good.

Marge Atkinson [00:03:44]:
There's nothing against high schoolers, it's just some people have a impression about them. But I loved working in the school library, learning a lot from the librarian that was there. She was really passionate about teaching kids how to study, how to find reluctant readers, how to find books that they were really interested in and things like that. She was really good. And then when my daughter graduated I library to find a better paying job because I was just an aide, not, you know, just a lowly aide in the schools. And I job at a nonprofit as a research manager and they had a tuition and reimbursement program and put me through school. They said they would, you know, let me go to library school and then they wanted to do more research there in the organization. And so that's what I did.

Marge Atkinson [00:04:31]:
And so in 202012 I got my library degree after three years of doing online, an online program at through Texas Woman's University. So it was the easiest school I've ever been in. I mean all my undergrad was more of a struggle, but it was just like this is what I was meant to do. So it took a bit.

Liza Holland [00:04:48]:
I got there, you were doing what you love. It's amazing how it's, it's, it's easier when, when everything aligns for you. That's great. That is great. So now you are actually working with the, with some non traditional grad students and whatnot. Tell us a little bit about maybe some of the challenges that you see that non traditional grad students have and what kind of spaces are you're trying to fill.

Marge Atkinson [00:05:13]:
They like me, they had a family. My daughter was in school actually, we started college probably the same year. And so we. They have a family, they're working full time, they, they want to get a better education, maybe get an advanced degree or two of some sort to then advance their career. So but there's, there's just the juggling of Family and work and school and it's overwhelming. And when you get to grad school, like I like, there's no crying in grad school. I mean they, they assume, you know, a lot of things. And a non traditional student, even the, especially even international students, which I kind of lump in with that because it's, it's, it's a big hurdle to come and try to learn something in your non native language and to try to do study.

Marge Atkinson [00:06:00]:
It's bad enough doing it in your native language. It's difficult. So they, they don't really know what they're doing. The, the programs are, are supposed to be training them how to do research and how to do a literature review and all of all the things they need to be doing to write and come up with their research project and eventually, you know, do their dissertation or their capstone. And some schools I think do it better than others as far as all of that training. The online schools I'm finding are not as well sourced with staff and librarians to help with that. So the non traditional students I've worked with have just always just feel like they're at a loss. And basically the attitude is, well, you're in grad school, figure it out.

Marge Atkinson [00:06:45]:
You should already know this stuff. So, which is unfortunate. So I, when I was, before when I started my business, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do because I had gone through a couple of layoffs. And so I'm like, let me just see about starting my own business. And I was at a networking event and met a woman who was a professor in an online university. And when she heard that I was a librarian, she was like, oh my gosh, you need to work with grad students who especially online. And a lot of schools are, have online programs even though they have physical campuses. But she's like, they really need help with writing and citing and researching and understanding how to do all of that because they really don't know how to do it.

Marge Atkinson [00:07:26]:
And even though they may get a course on it, they just, it's foreign to them because maybe it's been a while since they've been in school. I mean, one of my students hasn't been in School in 20 years and maybe 20 years ago they didn't even have databases or possibly likely. So yeah, it's a big challenge. So yes, there are academic libraries, yes, there are advisors in these grad programs, but clearly the students aren't getting what they need. And there are a lot of people like me out there. There are dissertation Services. I'm not necessarily one of those because I don't want. I mean, some people will go and have them write their dissertation for them.

Marge Atkinson [00:08:03]:
That's not ethical. And I don't know why you would do that. You have to defend your participation. You need to, you know, do the research. But there are a lot of people in support roles like this out there, but they're just not really well known. I've talked to several kind of who do similar things than I do. And you know, there are places online that have little programs like on Facebook and stuff. There's lots of groups out there.

Marge Atkinson [00:08:28]:
But I think there, the universe, there is a gap in. The schools aren't aware that we exist. And those of us who do this service have a challenge in getting the attention of the schools to say, hey, I can help your students beyond what they're getting. You know, and so there's that always.

Liza Holland [00:08:48]:
Always challenges to overcome there. But it sounds like you've got a really, a good solution to a pain point for a lot of these, these folks. And you mentioned that you, when we talked before, that you are also supporting some faculty members, may some, maybe some support for book writing, that sort of thing as well.

Marge Atkinson [00:09:08]:
So actually when I, when I first started my business back in 2019, I was doing it part time and I was still working at a community college library and kind of doing both of those part time. And one of my first clients was a faculty member in an online school, but he needed to write a paper for an upcoming conference. And it was, he's like, I don't have grad students to help me. So not there. There's another problem. Not all, not all faculty who need to continue to stay published and present at conferences and things like that have the grad students there to help them. And he's like, and I don't have time, so can you help me write a literature review on this topic and then it's going to be presented. It was actually for a conference that was happening in March of 2020.

Marge Atkinson [00:09:49]:
So I started in 2018, 2019. We were writing on this literature review. It took us a while to get it all worked out. And then 2020 came, the conference got canceled. And I was really disappointed because I wanted to see him present it, but, you know, that's what happened. But it was a really great experience. And I haven't worked really with faculty since then, but it was a really good learning experience for me. And to understand the needs of faculty as well and postdocs, they need to.

Marge Atkinson [00:10:15]:
Everybody needs to publish or perish. They may not have the time or the resources or the help. And depending on the school. Technically, the librarians aren't supposed to help. I know they do, but they're not really there to help the faculty with their research and finding sources. They're there to serve the student. I think it really depends on the school and the fact, the staffing and all of that. Yeah, so there's a need for that as well.

Marge Atkinson [00:10:37]:
And once again, I don't know that faculty or postdocs or anybody at that level realize there are people like me out there that can help with. Help them with that.

Liza Holland [00:10:49]:
Exactly, exactly. That whole publisher Parish piece is a real challenge for faculty members and postdocs, as you mentioned. It is a tough world to live in, I tell you what. So a huge wrench was thrown into all of this with the advent of AI.

Marge Atkinson [00:11:10]:
Yes. Oh my goodness.

Liza Holland [00:11:11]:
Yeah, I know. I mean, it's like, wow, okay, so what do we say to those who are like, oh, now AI can do all this stuff for me?

Marge Atkinson [00:11:20]:
Right? So when an AI has really not been around, it's only been a couple of years since it's really been in the forefront of everybody. I'm sure it's been around before that. But like since the public has been using the chat models and things like that. When it first came out, And I think 2023 is when I first became aware of it and I went to a conference at a University of Texas, Dallas, and they had the computer science faculty there and they described AI as a little eight, like an eight year old sitting in a room full of adults trying to make sense of all of the conversation. I think it's still that to a degree it's gotten a lot better since 2023, but it doesn't get it right. It's really helpful for a lot of things like looking up things or helping you wordsmith or helping you brainstorm and things like that. There are tools out there now that are coming out that are academic scholarly databases, but they're mostly open access, which is great. And it helps you sort things by.

Marge Atkinson [00:12:15]:
It kind of helps you look at things by subject and things that are similar. So you can sort and find similar articles and things like that, but it will also pull in the. Just the abstracts of a lot of other articles, which still means you need to go in to a library database through your school and access it that way to get what you need. So it is helpful to that degree, but it's still not the end all be all. One of My students early on use chat because they, I understand you're a non traditional student. You want to take shortcuts where you can. You don't have time for all of this. But.

Marge Atkinson [00:12:52]:
So she was using chat, not realizing that it makes stuff up. So like early on, chat GPT, it probably still does, but it maybe has gotten a little bit better. But it, it would, you know, just generate these scholarly resources. It looked like a valid one with a real author and his this and a, and an article name and a journal name and all of that. And so she came to me and she was like, I can't find these sources. Can you help me? And I looked up a couple. I'm like, did you use chat? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, no, don't do that.

Marge Atkinson [00:13:22]:
It makes stuff up. It's hallucinating is the word for it. But yep, yeah, it, it's not, it doesn't. And I think still now it'll still to maybe some degree I haven't tried it much, but I still think a lot of the models, at least now they're starting to cite their sources so they will show you where they found them. But at that point it was just saying here's an article in this topic and it, it should, you know, it didn't even pull up an article. It just gave them a resource. So I'm not quite sure what they were doing with that unless it was a fake resource, which it could have been. It could have been a fake document with the whole citation and everything and which did not exist.

Marge Atkinson [00:13:59]:
So I mean we've heard that lawyers have gotten into trouble with, with that early on and still maybe are with using the CHAT models.

Liza Holland [00:14:06]:
And you know, I think that using ChatGPT, it's really just a tool like anything else. Right. I mean it's like computers replace the card catalog. But that doesn't mean that you don't have the knowledge to understand what it is you're really looking for. And to give it really good prompts, you have to know what really what you want and what you're looking for. So it's that whole understanding your topic well enough to be able to ask good questions. And I think that that's, that's so foundational to research in general.

Marge Atkinson [00:14:41]:
Is that exactly? Yeah.

Liza Holland [00:14:42]:
Really under, you know, knowing your topic well enough to be able to pull and go, yeah, okay, this is an article on xyz, but it's not relevant to my thesis, so I don't need to cite that in my lit review.

Marge Atkinson [00:14:54]:
Right. Right.

Liza Holland [00:14:55]:
Tell me about your thoughts and your experiences so far on AI and academic integrity. A lot of the education world is still in the panic mode about ChatGPT and wanting to ban it and this and that and the other. What are your thoughts?

Marge Atkinson [00:15:12]:
I hesitate to say this, but I will say it anyway. I like to compare it to safe sex. You know, the students are using it anyway, so let's give them effective ways and tools to do it. And it sounds crass, but I mean it is a tool. They need to understand how to use it and not just go out there and willy nilly just use it and say, okay, Chat wrote this for me. And, and I mean I've heard because I'm in a lot of library groups and stuff and we talk about this all the time. And you know, don't copy and paste it directly because you know, when chat you ask it a question, it says certainly and then it goes into the response and they literally copy the whole thing and you see as part of your. Yeah, so don't do that.

Marge Atkinson [00:15:55]:
And always, always check what it is that Chat is giving you. And yeah, it sounds great, but you know, if it's, if it is citing a source, you're still, you think you're saving time, but in the long run you really need to double check everything. So you may end up spending as much time double checking what Chat has. Even though the wordsmithing is sometimes sounds really great and that's fine, but you still need to vet everything that it says to make sure that's really what it said and where it came from. And I think it is helpful now if it is now that it's starting to give the citations. And in ChatGPT you can ask it for citations. It didn't start doing that automatically, but I use Perplexity a lot. There's some other tools that will automatically just cite and now there's a scholarly version I think in Perplexity, which you can click and it will get be more scholarly and kind of help with that.

Marge Atkinson [00:16:46]:
But still, once again it is a tool and you still need to make sure it's saying what it's supposed, what you want it to say or you know what it's really accurate.

Liza Holland [00:16:57]:
Absolutely, absolutely. So one of the things that you and I were talking about is kind of this lack of pipelines in so many professions from K12 up into higher ed. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that.

Marge Atkinson [00:17:11]:
Yeah, so I used to do some market research for some, for a client who works with a lot of associations like with tax professionals or healthcare finance or pretty much anything. And all of these associations are kind of screaming that there is no pipeline. Like for CPAs, there is no pipeline. I mean, students, there's not, maybe there's not effective pipeline, but it's kind of concerned. They're, they're a lot concerned because, you know, we need CPAs like in the IRS and at the government level and at the, for businesses and for just con, you know, people that need their taxes done. They may teach them math, they may teach them accounting, but maybe that's not part of their regular core course in K12. And then if they, they're not not even aware that those can lead into maybe getting a CPA and then in going into doing everything that CPAs do. And they're not just, they don't just do taxes.

Marge Atkinson [00:18:07]:
I don't know enough about what all CPAs do. I just know they do a lot more than just taxes. But they, they know the ins and out of everything and it's important to have those professionals out there. And what are we going to do if we don't have them? The same with a lot of other professions, even in healthcare depends on the certain things that they're. And the AI is I think, replacing some functions. But there's a lot of things that people aren't learning necessarily about health care to go and do that. Maybe they do some technical kind of courses in, when they're in high school or something like that to learn about being in the healthcare or in a tech kind of position or whatever. So I, I think as we were talking, we've kind of been in this model of K through 12 for centuries.

Marge Atkinson [00:18:54]:
Maybe this is the, the, you know, the three R's and then, you know, more than that. And so social, emotional learning, which is important to all of that, whether that's not really necessarily related to a pipeline, but that's starting to be trigger phrase. Like people think it's not important, which is so important with the development of children as they learn it. That's a whole other topic. But yeah, there's just, I think there's a lot of professional positions that we have nowadays. Like when I got my degree in German, which I thought I wanted to do other things with it. I ended up working in a bank. I mean, so it had nothing to do with my degree.

Marge Atkinson [00:19:29]:
And there's a lot of that. You go through school and you go to college and you just get a degree in something and a lot of times it's not really specialized in what it is you really want to do because you probably don't know what you want to do or what your skills are or whatever. And then you just end up well, I've got a college degree. I'm going to work in this little clerical position in a institution somewhere. And I don't know, it seems like in other countries they do internship or whatever the word I'm not thinking of. But the apprenticeships. Yes. Where they learn the trade, whether it's a trade or a profession.

Marge Atkinson [00:20:05]:
They, I think they do a better job of that in other countries where you're really getting some skills and knowledge that you can use in a profession as you go instead of just going well, I'm going to go to college. College because I'm told I have to or even community college which is great. And then that can get you either continue on to college or get you into a trade and get to work immediately. And, and I love that community colleges offer that. In my area we're really trying to focus, the community colleges are really focused more on a lot more on the trades than they used to be which gets the people out quicker and getting, getting into the workplace faster.

Liza Holland [00:20:42]:
Well, you know, I think the calculus has changed a little bit with the incredible expense of higher education today. The last statistics I saw was that 74% of jobs will not require a four year degree but it will require some sort of post high school types of education. And so that's a lot. I mean that's a huge piece of our population that is not necessarily going to have to go on for a four year degree. And I love the work that's happening in things like the CAPS network out of Kansas City that is profession connected learning. Really developing pathways where students can understand really what it's like to be a cpa, what it's like and what it's required to be an architect or a healthcare professional, all these types of things and making those touches earlier so that students can make better decisions going into college. Especially with the amount of investment you have to make in making that happen.

Marge Atkinson [00:21:46]:
So yeah, yes, expense is a big factor. Just from, yes, from the time I got, you know, my husband and I went to college to when my daughter went to college and the massive increase in tuition and well, she went to a private school but even, even in the, in the public schools it was just way more expensive on a cost of living basis it seemed like it was way more expensive. It just didn't just you know, gradually go up with everything else. It just, and I have not looked to see why it's become so expensive. I have not done the research but sure are many factors and reasons why but Indeed, indeed.

Liza Holland [00:22:26]:
But I think it does call for some, some changes and adjustments like you were talking about.

Marge Atkinson [00:22:32]:
So.

Liza Holland [00:22:32]:
Absolutely. So you like myself, are a young in spirit entrepreneur with starting this, this new venture that you have. Tell us about some of the challenges that you faced.

Marge Atkinson [00:22:45]:
Never run my own business. There's just a huge learning curve. I was, I'm very fortunate in small businesses out there. There are so many free resources and you know, non there are a lot of people who want to help you with that as well and you can pay for that as well. But like I started out with the Small Business Development center and they had a really great counselor and kind of helped me get started and figure out what it. What all I could do. We brainstormed a lot of things. We came finally came up with the name of my company Ask Marge.

Marge Atkinson [00:23:15]:
And just that was really helpful at the beginning and they're still helpful. There are organizations like score, retired executives who mentor entrepreneurs and small businesses on how to run a business and all just all the basics of how to do a business plan or how to budget or do you need to hire an accountant and a lawyer. I mean just all of the things that you don't even think about. I've worked in corporate and or education the majority of my life, so I really had no clue. Still feel like six years in. There's still a lot of things I don't know because you're working in your business and trying not to spend a whole lot of time learning about all of these things that you know you need to know. But there are professionals for that and hopefully you can pay some of them to help you do like a CPA and stuff to do my taxes because that's not my forte. So it's just a big learning curve on how to balance your time, how to find clients.

Marge Atkinson [00:24:09]:
And that's been a big struggle for me. How to figure out how to find like student clients, how to get the attention of the schools or the faculty. You know, I've been trying this for six years and still don't have number of students that I would like to have. So that's where like you mentioned earlier and I forgot to talk about authors have found me. I'm listed on the National Archives as an independent researcher and, and I have, I live near the Fort Worth National Archives facility. So I've gone there a couple times to do research for people that are looking for records or the authors that are looking for information. I can do it online, too. Some of the records are available online, but there's a need for research, and I'm happy to do that, but just trying to find clients.

Marge Atkinson [00:24:52]:
And fortunately, authors have found me that way, which is great. But it's weird. I haven't done a whole lot of overt marketing for any of the services I provide. A lot of times they just find me somehow. And it seems like I can't rely on this magical ability for people to find me. There's got to be a more strategic way to get clients. But at the moment, that's how it's worked. But yes, And I go to a lot of networking events and I'm sure that will pan out because that's important to be to network and, and people know what you do and so, you know, you know how that.

Marge Atkinson [00:25:22]:
How networking goes, so.

Liza Holland [00:25:24]:
Absolutely. And see here, you're a guest on a podcast. That's another great way to market.

Marge Atkinson [00:25:28]:
Exactly. Because I met and I met somebody at an event who referred me to you, and that's how that works. So, yes, I love it. I love it.

Liza Holland [00:25:37]:
Oh, such a great conversation here today, Marge. I like to ask all of my interviewees this final question as well, Given the state that you're talking about. I mean, so much of what's going on in research with AI and everything's in flux. What would you like decision makers to know?

Marge Atkinson [00:25:55]:
Well, it's great. Yeah. AI is not the panacea. It is not the end all, be all. It is a tool, as we discussed, but it is. You need to rely on people and their brains and their ability to have critical thinking around everything. And I think sometimes that's at a loss. I think there's been some news about, even as we use AI, that it's, it's kind of screwing with our brain a little bit.

Marge Atkinson [00:26:23]:
And I admit, I'm like, okay, yeah, it's kind of like it's addictive sometimes to just go there and ask it a question. But it's important that we, we still work with people and, you know, use their abilities and their abilities to think and do things and use their talents and skills. That's important from, you know, school all the way through a career. You just really. That's why we're here as humans. That's what we do. We can't rely on the machines to do everything. It's great for some automated tasks or whatever, but you still in.

Marge Atkinson [00:26:52]:
At the end of the day, you still need people to use their talents and skills. And education and brains to to do what they need to do.

Liza Holland [00:27:02]:
Good answer. Good answer. I wanted to to tell our listeners that Marge has given a great listing of some neat kind of book shout outs and podcasts and websites, including hers, that I'm going to drop in the show notes. So please make sure to kind of check that out there. And Marge, tell us if a listener is looking for some research help, where can we find you?

Marge Atkinson [00:27:26]:
My website is askmarge. A S K M A R J a little unusual. Com. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, Facebook. I have a professional and a personal account on Facebook. So really, all of those, I'm not on Twitter or any of the variations of that at the moment. I think where I am is fine.

Liza Holland [00:27:50]:
Absolutely, absolutely. And for those of us who know and appreciate how much this background in research is, I. I hope that you find lots of good clients.

Marge Atkinson [00:28:01]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this conversation.

Liza Holland [00:28:04]:
Well, thank you so much for being here with us and we'll look forward to getting your interview posted.

Marge Atkinson [00:28:12]:
Okay, thanks. Have a good one.

Liza Holland [00:28:15]:
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Education Perspectives. Feel free to share your thoughts on our Facebook page. Let us know which education perspectives you would like to hear or share. Please subscribe and share with your friends.