The Joy Lab: Empowering Teachers and Students with Connection, Play, and Purpose with Darcy Bakkegard

Darcy Bakkegard

Co-Founder & Change Consultant, 

The Educators' Lab

Quotes of the Podcast: 

“Think of what you want to be different and start from there.” Priya Parker, The Art of Gathering 

“While individual curiosity can produce incredible feats, our collective curiosity is the motor behind humanity’s biggest innovations. Conversations feed our imagination, and collaboration enables us to dream bigger. In fact, we are wired to function at our best when tapping into shared knowledge and the support of a community.” Anne-Laure Le Cunff, Tiny Experiments

Introduction of Guest BIO – 

Darcy believes in the power of education to change lives and the power of TEACHERS to lead that change. To help teachers do this work, she co-founded The Educators' Lab USA and is a board member of The Educators’ Lab Global. She designed and facilitated The Teacher Empowerment Incubator, a pilot program that supports rural teachers as community collaborators and problem-solvers. 

A classroom teacher for over a decade, Darcy creates the type of PD she always wanted, driving change in education and empowering teachers as changemakers. Through her work, teachers reconnect with their purpose, rekindle their spark for teaching, and reignite the JOY of teaching and learning. 

In addition to her joy work, Darcy is the co-author of The Startup Teacher Playbook, a frequent contributor to Edutopia, holds a Master’s of Secondary Education, is an ISTE Certified Educator, and is an experienced international presenter and keynote speaker. She's ALWAYS up to brainstorm and collaborate. She lives in Fargo, ND, with her husband and their triplets.

Interview

Agents of Change: Leaders/Innovators.

• 30,000 Ft. View – Why so we, as a society invest in education?
• What drew you to education?
• The lessons Education CAN learn from business 
• Why Joy & How Joy helps spark ACTION 
• The importance of play (playing with ideas, playing in the classroom, PLAY!)
• What are the biggest challenges to you?
• What would you like decision makers to know?”

Podcast/ website/ book shoutouts

Book I Wrote: The Startup Teacher Playbook Books I recommend: Wintering, The Art of Gathering, Tiny Experiments- ALL GREAT reads Website: TheEducatorsLab.com

Transcript

Liza Holland [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Education Perspectives. I am your host, Liza Holland. This is a podcast that explores the role of education in our society from a variety of lenses. Education needs to evolve to meet the needs of today and the future. Solving such huge issues requires understanding. Join me as we begin to explore the many perspectives of education. We are so excited to welcome Darcy Bacagaard today. Darcy believes in the power of education to change lives and the power of teachers to lead that change.

Liza Holland [00:00:40]:
To help teachers do this work, she co founded the Educators Lab USA and is a board member of the Educators Lab Global. She designed and facilitated the Teacher Empowerment Incubator, a pilot program that supports rural teachers as community collaborators and problem solvers. A classroom teacher for over a decade, Darcy creates the type of PD she always wanted, driving change in education and empowering teachers as change makers. Through her work, teachers reconnect with their purpose, rekindle their spark for teaching, and reignite the joy of teaching and learning. In addition to her work, Darcy is the co author of the Startup Teacher Playbook, a frequent contributor to Edutopia, holds a Master's of Secondary Education, is an ISTE Certified Educator, and is an experienced international presenter and keynote speaker. She is always up to brainstorm and collaborate. She lives in Fargo, North Dakota with her husband and their triplets. So, Darci, welcome to Education Perspectives.

Liza Holland [00:01:51]:
We are so delighted to have you.

Darcy Bakkegard [00:01:53]:
Thank you for having me on. I'm excited to have a conversation about all things education.

Liza Holland [00:02:00]:
Well, I have to kick you off with our our big question from a 30,000 foot view. Why do you think that we as a society invest in education?

Darcy Bacagaard [00:02:10]:
Oh, there are so many. It's like I immediately saw this puzzle in my head of all of these interlocking pieces, right? And some of it is the less glamorous, some of it, honestly, there's some logistics to it. We learned in the pandemic. When you don't have access to a good school system, your workforce suffers. Not just the future of your workforce, but your current workforce. Because we need to have this safe, nurturing environment for our children to be in. There's this less glamorous, these smaller pieces, but. But I am one of those.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:02:53]:
I always feel so cheesy when I think about it. But it's because the 30,000 foot view is education is what opens the door of possibility and opportunity for everybody. It is one of the great equalizers, but also one of the great connectors. And for me, that was another big, huge lesson out of COVID that when we didn't have access to the community and the connection, yes. There were some learning. There's been a lot of talk about the learning loss and the learning gaps. And honestly for me, that to me feels way less important than the loss of connection and that all of those pieces of why education matters fit together. But ultimately it's because it helps connect us as communities, as humans and as future collaborators that we're in this together.

Liza Holland [00:03:55]:
I think that's the basic human construct. Right. It's all about relationships. And the research is really saying that if you don't have good relationships, that's why you sort of wither and die early.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:04:07]:
Yes. And there are so many, and I don't want to call them obstacles to connections because so many of them are things that we are choosing as humans. And so they are obstacles. And I'm picking up my smartphone here. But there are obstacles that we are engaging in that are putting up some barriers to those connections. And it's hard because I feel like we're getting to this point. It feels. I am introverted by nature, but because I have a theater background and I'm a teacher, I am very extroverted, especially in one on one conversations.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:04:44]:
But for me, my natural inclination would just be to stay in my house and read a book. But I also know that my mental health suffers when that is all that I do. Like, right. If I am starting to slip into a cycle of depression, I know that the last thing I want to do is to see other people. But I also know that it is going to be one of the things, especially if I can just connect with a couple individual people. That is what is going to pull me out of that. And I think we could do a better job. You and I were visiting a little bit earlier about back to school nerves and I think we could do a better job of acknowledging we're all nervous to meet new people.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:05:31]:
I really, I've come to that realization as I've gotten older and older. I thought it was just me, you know, like, oh, I'm shy and I'm awkward and like this is so easy for other people. But the more people I talk to, it's not. It is not second nature for most people. And it's hard. And so when we have these devices and these obstacles that make it even harder for us to take those risks of talking to people in person, it's challenging. And so for me, things like in person, school and building that community, it's becoming more important than ever for these kids to have real physical, face to face connections. And this whole group, family, the village around them so that they have that network.

Liza Holland [00:06:25]:
Oh, I agree with you so much. And so much of our society has kind of gone away from that. You know, the. The regular block parties don't really seem to happen anymore. And the, you know, gathering together, maybe at church or all these different places that we have been gathering in the past are kind of going out of fashion, it seems, or something. I don't know. And so that community around school, I think, is an anchor not only for the kids and the teachers, but I think it is for the community for parents to be able to get involved to, you know, to have events that are connected there. It's a natural societal gathering place and it could.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:07:08]:
I love that. And I think you're right. It's one of the last natural societal points I'm living. I'm in Fargo, North Dakota, and so I'm in a huge metropolis here with 125,000 people in Fargo, and. And a lot of the towns around North Dakota have a couple thousand people. So the school really becomes the heart and soul of those communities. It is the primary gathering place. And I love, and I'm saying this as you and I are talking over zoom, and we're using, you know, we're using this virtual connection, and so the very thing that we're kind of talking about separating us.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:07:51]:
So. So I love it because I have gotten to meet face to face, in quotes, with educators all over the world because of technology. And so this is not about ditching technology. And I also really appreciate, and I have heard great feedback as I do professional development for teachers. For a while, I was doing something that I called weekly web chats. So it was eight, seven years ago now, but I would do video recordings like this, and then teachers could watch them asynchronously whenever they wanted. And it was me having conversations with other teachers about, like, something awesome they were doing in their classroom. And I heard from several teachers who, you know, said things like, I'm a new mom and I love that I can do PD while rocking my baby.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:08:42]:
And I get the power of the asynchronous online virtual option. I have really, as of late, been doubling down on in person, face to face workshops. And I think it hurts some of my attendance numbers sometimes because if I could offer the same thing in a virtual format, I know I would have more people participating. But for me, part of what I'm doing and trying to help teachers innovate and reconnect their purpose and spark joy in the work they're doing, I have Just doubled down on. We need. It's fundamental to that is connection. And so we're going to meet face to face. And if that means I only get 20 teachers instead of 100 teachers, I'm going to do that because this is going to be a more powerful experience.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:09:37]:
Experience for those 20. And hopefully, as teachers are having those. Oh, yes. This was a whole day I had to give up of my life. But the power of that connection and rejuvenation was such that it was really important and vital. And I think the same thing happens in our communities that when we are reminded, oh, yeah, like just seeing the humanity in each other, it's really hard to hate the person who you're having a hamburger with. I mean, it's just a different dynamic and a lot easier to just engage in a lovely conversation when you're building those face to face connections.

Liza Holland [00:10:19]:
I think that's so true. And, you know, you talk about the devices and these perfect lives that are portrayed on Facebook. It's only the absolute best of the best of the best. And so, you know, for people to realize that we all have struggles. We all are, you know, working through this mess. And yes, we want to celebrate the really neat things, but the rest of life still goes on.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:10:41]:
It does. And Liza, this summer, I had one of those. I ran into a mom friend that I know not very well, and she said, so how is Summer going? And I said, well, you know, we have had some amazing adventures, and I am also losing my mind. It has been a bit of a, you know, what show, because they are whining. I feel like my head is melting. My brain has not had a break. I'm feeling tremendous mom guilt that I'm not happy enough being with my children. I mean, I waited and waited for these humans that I created.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:11:25]:
Like, I had to work so hard to create them. And for me to be irritated with them, I feel tremendous guilt. And for me to be like, I really need them to go to school so that my brain can function. And this mom, I just kind of. I mean, and I said it like this with a smile on my face, but I was like. And she looked at me and she said, thank you for giving a real answer.

Liza Holland [00:11:52]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:11:53]:
And I hadn't thought of it that way. I was just. Honestly, I was at my wit's end and I was like, well, I'm not gonna pretend. I feel like I am going, this.

Liza Holland [00:12:03]:
Is what's going on.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:12:04]:
Yes, I am having a rough time. Summer. I. As an educator, Summer was never long enough. And as A mom. I hit like July 20th and I went, when are they going? Because they need more. And I, my brain needs more. And I am so grateful that I have the luxury of staying home with my kids in the summer, that my work and my husband like that our life accommodates that.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:12:36]:
And yet it was, it was a reminder to me of, oh, yes, because teaching too is an oddly isolating profession. And I think when you're a mom, it can be oddly isolating. You're with people all day, every day, but you are not having particularly stimulating conversations. You are not challenging yourself. You are not getting to do the kind of fun work that at least my brain really craves. And I have learned this summer. I'm 45 and I'm just learning this lesson. At 45, I have learned, oh, wow, I need that.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:13:13]:
And without that, my mental health suffers and I am a worse mom. Yes, I am a better parent. When I have built in time for me to collaborate, to have conversations like this.

Liza Holland [00:13:30]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:13:31]:
And this, these conversations are fuel for my soul and a balm for my brain that help me continue to be a better version of myself. And when I don't have those opportunities, then things go haywire. And I think that connects exactly to what we were talking about of when we don't have those connections, that social isolation, that anxiety, all of the depression, all of those things are exacerbated. And so to wrap this back to your big question. Yeah, I think public education is more important than it has ever been so that we are building strong webs of support around these kids and helping protect them, but also providing those spaces for the adults who are anxious and having a hard time and needing both sides of that so that they know their kids are in a safe place so they can do the brain work that they want and need, but also so they have a built in community that they can tap into when they need a little bit more support.

Liza Holland [00:14:44]:
Absolutely. Oh, that's such a powerful conversation. And I feel like I could go on and on and on with that forever. But since we are time limited here, tell me a little bit about what drew you to education in the first place.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:14:58]:
Well, I was a theater major and started working in theater post college. And it was one of those as a kid, I always wanted to be a teacher. And then I got really into theater and kind of felt like I had to choose. And so I chose majoring in theater. And then as I was working it, just as much as I loved it, there was just something that was missing for me and I Went back and got my English degree and my master's in secondary education and became a speech English and theater teacher. And so I have had. It's been perfect and in hindsight it was a really obvious connection but was not something that my 1820 year old brain was ready to latch onto. And I, I do.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:15:49]:
I love the, the process of education and whether it's my theater background or my teaching background, I love having this destination in mind. Whether it's the production or the summative assessment or these end targeted goals. I love having this destination in mind and then getting to put all of the pieces in place so that everyone can success successfully get there. And there's something so magical and beautiful about that. And yeah. And then, you know, being a teacher is, I mean really is doing a performance role. It is all day, every day. I will say that my theater background definitely helps.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:16:35]:
I think I'm authentically myself. I don't think I'm a character when I'm in front of my students, but I do treat it as a separate thing. Right. And so. And that every single period as I went through the day, every single group of kids deserved the best version of me that I could muster. And sometimes that wasn't the greatest version of myself, but like. Right. Just in that time.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:17:07]:
And that took a lot of grace and practice as a teacher to acknowledge that that not every day was I going to be 100% but that those students deserved the best version of myself that I could give them that day. And sometimes that was only 10%, if I'm being honest.

Liza Holland [00:17:26]:
And that's okay.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:17:27]:
But that was we're human. Correct. And so. But that performance part still helped me kind of give a little bit of separation between me, my life and what was going on for me and helping create the learning experience and environment that every single student deserved or trying to.

Liza Holland [00:17:49]:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I tell you, I recently had the opportunity to do some work with junior achievement and part of that was going into the classroom and I jumped in with both feet with, with a ja in a day, which meant I had the classroom all day for one day. And it was so exciting and there was so much energy from the students and all this kind of stuff. But I got done with the day and I was flat exhausted. I went back to the hotel and was like, how do teachers do this every day?

Darcy Bacagaard [00:18:22]:
It is like running a marathon.

Liza Holland [00:18:24]:
Yeah, it's like that. Performance tasks. Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:18:30]:
On. You are on. And then about the time, at least in my experience, about the time that you let your guard Down a little bit and think, okay, I have a break. The phone rings, the email comes in, you know, the, the kid walks in the room with some fresh problem or challenge and you're right back in it. Yeah. So it is, it is exhausting. I'm excited to see my little ones start, started kindergarten today. I have five year old triplets and they started kindergarten and so I dropped them off and we got them all set in their rooms and it was a very different experience.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:19:10]:
And I have a fresh appreciation and as a teacher now, in hindsight, I wish I would have had this experience 20 years ago, just the way my life panned out. I'm an older than average first time parent since sending my kids to kindergarten. But the amount of empathy that I have now for those parents who were emailing me about their senior is different. And I think that I would have been kinder, more compassionate. I don't think I was ever mean. I really hope not.

Liza Holland [00:19:42]:
I don't see that in you.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:19:44]:
But I very much like, after this morning I was like, oh, this is so much harder than I thought it was going to be. Because as I just shared, I have been so excited for school to start.

Liza Holland [00:19:58]:
Exactly. Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:19:59]:
I just left three pieces of my heart in a building with people I don't know.

Liza Holland [00:20:05]:
Absolutely. Oh, gosh. Well, considering you have the triplets, I think that's a neat segue to a lot of what you're doing with your PD and whatnot. Kind of centers around joy and play. Tell me about your opinions about the importance of play. Because one of the things that I have noticed, you know, looking back at this long term kind of how we progress through school, we used, I mean, I'm a Gen Xer, so we used to be very feral. We'd, you know, throw you out into, you know, get your homework done but then just go away and, you know, come back when the streetlights come on. And so we got a lot out of play that really were the foundational skills for really good negotiation, critical thinking, helping to, you know, what game are we gonna play? I don't know, what do you wanna play? What are we gonna do? What are the rules gonna be? Oh, well, let's argue about that and work it out.

Liza Holland [00:21:02]:
Let's communicate in those types of ways. And now we find kids going from a curated adult monitored playdate to a curated adult monitored camp. Which doesn't mean that they're not great experiences for the kids, but it does mean that they're missing something in their growth and development.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:21:22]:
And I think one of the critical things in there. And this is going to sound weird as a parent and as a teacher, some of that is the unsupervised play. So much of that, of the curated part is wonderful. And I'm a teacher, obviously. My whole job was to curate learning experiences. But so much of that is what you figure out. And I'll up you. I'm the tail end of Gen X, but growing up in North Dakota, and my parents are both from a town of 100 people.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:21:57]:
And so when I would go to my grandparents, well, a, there were no street lights and so there was no come home when the streetlights come on. But we would be literally roaming the countryside.

Liza Holland [00:22:10]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:22:11]:
From morning till night. And I have vivid memories of myself and two of my cousins who are still my best friends. But the three of us took a canoe. I think we were 10 years old and we took a canoe and we went canoeing for the entire day, just through cow pastures, over rocks, through things, climbing around, hauling this canoe there. No cell phone, you know, like. So I get exactly what you're saying. And as an adult, it is hard. And we also live where we're much more aware of safety and things like that.

Liza Holland [00:22:49]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:22:49]:
Which are all great, but I just had a conversation two days ago with my five years. Five year olds. We live in a neighborhood that has one entrance and then it's like a big loop. And so there's not. There aren't through streets. And I just told them, you guys are big enough to ride the loop by yourself because we have to be providing those opportunities. And it's hard as a parent. And I told them they can't do it alone.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:23:22]:
They're five and a half. They can't go by themselves. But to ride the loop around our neighborhood, where we know a lot of the people, you can do that on your bike, you can walk. But I am curious to see if anyone in the neighborhood questions that, like, why are these relatively little kids out here by themselves? I don't think they will. But yeah, we need opportunities for. For that. And I'll tell you, it goes further than that. As I work with adults, I think so much of everything in life is curated not just for kids, but also for adults.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:24:02]:
That there. When I do joy labs or when I do implementation labs, my whole theory is that there's tons of inspiration for teachers. And teachers are the people who know better than anyone what is and is not working in their classroom. They're the people who know the constraints that they're up against, who know like, right, they have all of the pieces. I don't. As someone who's coming in. So even though I have this great idea and this idea about play and these strategies, I don't know them. I, you know, like it.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:24:36]:
I just cannot say do this. So my whole thing is, let's help teachers take the inspiration from all of these experts, but actually help them strategically implement it in their classroom. We need time for them to think about, what problem am I trying to solve? How does this tool, this piece of inspiration, help me solve this puzzle? And how am I going to do this? What will it actually look like and feel like in my classroom? So I try to do that. But the number of times that teachers. There are a couple common responses. One, they will look at me and say, well, I thought you were going to tell me what to do.

Liza Holland [00:25:19]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:25:20]:
And I will go, it's not my classroom. Like, I will share ideas, but what I would do is irrelevant because I'm me and you're you and like, it's irrelevant. So I can brainstorm ideas and ask questions. But. And the other common response was the teacher would share, share a solution. They would have an idea that they wanted to try, they would share that, and I would say, that's fantastic, let's do it. And they would come back with, yeah, but. And they would, yeah, but themselves into not even trying something new.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:26:04]:
So not only are we overly curating experiences for our kids, they that over curation is also part of how we're training teachers of how we're doing professional development. So much so that this summer, for one of my pds, I did a whole activity that was about ambiguity where I gave the teachers a couple pieces of information. And then I said, you have 45 minutes. Review that information and compile it. And I had a whole bunch of art supplies out and they would ask me questions and I would just shrug my shoulders. And five of the 12 teachers afterwards said, when you gave us these instructions, I thought I was going to throw up.

Liza Holland [00:26:50]:
Think about what your students are feeling.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:26:52]:
Yes. But also think of how much we are setting them up, how much that fear grows. Yes. The longer they haven't had to wrestle with that feeling. And so these adult teachers, when faced with a task that didn't have a concrete five step process, they were like, well, what do you want me to do? And I just kept shrugging. I mean, it was the hardest 45 minutes of my life because I couldn't talk and I just had to sit back and watch. But it was really helpful for this idea of, yeah, we do need less curated play for kids, but I would argue adults also need less curated play. We need more time to play with ideas and to wrestle with big questions, to have training, like to have some of your big questions infused and to just have time to play with ideas.

Liza Holland [00:27:52]:
Oh, man. Isn't that. And time. You know, time is the most precious resource. Administrators out there carve out time. Parents try to find time to save your teacher's time.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:28:05]:
Yes.

Liza Holland [00:28:06]:
I'm telling you, it is. It's the most precious commodity out there. And district level people are over curating, you know, okay, today you're supposed to do this. Seriously, I got a master's degree for this.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:28:20]:
Well, and what it ends up doing is it even trains teachers to just want to jump through the hoops and to do what they're supposed to do so they can get it done.

Liza Holland [00:28:32]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:28:33]:
And then the big problem. And that's fine. Right. I taught juniors and seniors and sometimes we would have to do something and they would look at me and go, why are we doing this? And I would say, I'm going to be honest, because it's a hoop we have to jump through. Is there a really good academic or. No, I'm going to be honest, but the district needs this information. I am your teacher. And you know what? Sometimes in life you got to eat the frog.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:29:04]:
You got to jump through the hoop. So we're doing it. And they would kind of. And for whatever reason, that answer actually did work. They. They would go, oh. Because I wasn't trying to trick them. I was just like, this is one of those things.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:29:18]:
But when we are training people and our teachers to jump through those hoops when they're faced with a new problem, we are now at a disadvantage. Because now people don't know how to wrestle with ambiguity. They don't know how to break down those problems, and they don't know how to have kind, thoughtful, collaborative conversations about what's possible in those conversations and around those problems. So we've set up all of these things where we really killed creativity.

Liza Holland [00:29:56]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:29:57]:
And I talk about that a lot as a high school teacher. You know, you walk into. And just this morning, I got to. I got to take three little kiddos into three different kindergarten classrooms. And the energy is just. I mean, it is buzzing in there, bursting in there.

Liza Holland [00:30:13]:
Absolutely.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:30:13]:
I mean, especially the first day, but. And I've gotten to visit many kindergarten classrooms and the love and the curiosity is just palpable. And I kept looking then at my teaching in my class and this connects back to play and why it is so important that I kept looking at my kids and going, when did we kill that curiosity? When did we kill? Because humans are innately curious, some are more cautious than others, but we are innately curious. So when in our system, and I will again say I, as I said at the beginning, I full throated support of education, especially public education, but also when did we kill that curiosity? Because unless we are fostering that curiosity, we will not be able to solve the problems that we're currently facing, let alone the problems we're going to be facing. So play for me is integral in that. A, because so many, for me again, high school being my experience, so many of those kids sing, sit all day. Yeah, they don't move. And so play was important.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:31:35]:
Sometimes, sometimes I would make an activity, something that we had to stand and move around to do, honestly, just for the sake of movement. And I think that that is one reason and a reason enough to do some play based activities. And then B, the idea of play, as you're saying, of like the figuring out the rules of the game and negotiating this and doing that and exploring this, it becomes much more authentic and it's tapping into these other diverse pathways that we want students to develop. And I didn't realize that, I'll be honest. It was probably year, I think it was year nine for me as a teacher. My master's thesis is Interactive Theater Strategies for the Classroom.

Liza Holland [00:32:26]:
Oh, wow.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:32:27]:
Because theater is my background and for me it's just second nature. And I finally had an administrator and if there are administrators listening, I wrote about this, the gifts that administrators can give to their teachers. And one of them is to see your teachers in a way that they don't see themselves. I had a fantastic supervising principal, the assistant principal, Dr. Holly Ripke. And she, after a lesson, came up to me and she said, how'd you get the kids to do that? And I looked at her and just went, well, it was what was on the task board for today. I was so clueless. I said, well, my answer, well, it's what I told them to do.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:33:16]:
And she goes, no, I have seen these same students in other classrooms and they would never do what they just did for you. So how did you get your students to do that? And she forced me to really think about because for me again, I kind of looked at her and I went, oh, like this isn't how all classrooms.

Liza Holland [00:33:43]:
Well, and you know, you're stuck in your box all day, you don't get to see all these other classrooms and how they're running. Right.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:33:48]:
I don't know. And so she was able to show me and tell me I was doing something different that was working like.

Liza Holland [00:33:58]:
Right.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:33:58]:
It wasn't a bad thing. It was. And it's not what my colleagues were doing wasn't bad either. I was just doing something different.

Liza Holland [00:34:07]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:34:07]:
A lot of it came down to play and to structurally giving kids space. I look at it this way, they need space to look silly. Because unless it's safe to be silly, taking risks will never feel safe.

Liza Holland [00:34:26]:
And I think that's part of that whole how did we kill the creativity thing is it always has to be the right answer. It's not iterative, it's not okay to fail, you know, and.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:34:37]:
Exactly. And so why would you ever take a risk?

Liza Holland [00:34:40]:
Yes, exactly.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:34:42]:
And so the beauty of play and having more of these open ended structures and for you, these open ended questions, it helps stimulate that opportunity. It gets more kids involved. I also realized that you need to start really small. And I had been intuitively doing this right. Day of class, she was observing me in January. I didn't ask. And I think what she saw was this group of juniors, they were doing skits of some kind. And there were a couple boys, you know, who like wore their cowboy boots and their work jeans to school.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:35:20]:
You know, they were so funny, but also right on point with the content of what we were doing, like this was not a game for games sake. The content was all woven into it. And I realized though that at the very beginning, that's obviously we didn't start and do that day one. We built up a great deal of trust. We created a community where it was safe, where people were comfortable, where we started with things where fairly traditional. Right. But that slowly we kept doing things. And the risks I was asking them to take and the vulnerability I was asking them to express just kept getting a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger.

Liza Holland [00:36:12]:
Yeah. And it couldn't have been done on day one. Right.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:36:14]:
It couldn't have been done on day one. And so I often tell people that, you know, and even administrators who are saying, well, how do I get my staff to do this? I'm like, well, you need to acknowledge that it's not going to happen day one. And to that point of give them time so they can implement. If out of the blue you just say, here's an hour. I'll be honest, they're probably not going to accomplish much because that is not how things have been done. So you have to create this system of support so that it's there. And. And then you have to lead by example.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:36:50]:
And so you best believe that when we were doing Pictionary, I am a horrible drawer. I always took a turn drawing. I made fun of my drawings frequently. The kids could not figure out what I was drawing. And I'd be like you guys. And I would be trying. And I did vocabulary dances where kids had to create a dance move that helped show. Show the definition of the word.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:37:18]:
And then we would turn on music and we would dance. And you best believe I was the craziest, weirdest dancer. And that's not in every educator's comfort zone.

Liza Holland [00:37:30]:
Yeah.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:37:31]:
So you have to do what is comfortable to you. But if you always have to be perfect, you are modeling to your students that they also always have to be perfect. If you are not willing to take some risks and to ask some big questions and to not know the answer. So uncomfortable. For a teacher who is used to leading the journey, to be on the journey with the students is a very different feeling. And it's vulnerable and it's scary. But I also think it's critical to rebuilding that kid curiosity. And it's vital to truly creating a community where you can take risks.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:38:15]:
And the same is true whether you're trying to build that community in your classroom or in your school or in your district.

Liza Holland [00:38:23]:
Absolutely. That ability to kind of laugh at yourself and have the answer. Wow, that's a really good question. Do any of you know what the answer to that question is? Because I don't. Let's co create together, you know, and what kind of tools do we have if we don't. If none of us in here know the answer to a question, what kind of tools do we have to be able to try to come to an answer to this question? You know, and all of a sudden they are a part of the process as opposed to just spitting back the answers.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:38:55]:
And the beauty. I do think I have an advantage in teaching English. So much of what we're talking about in English is ambiguous. Thank you. See, this is a great example of like. Yeah, See, like, I'm an English teacher and I can't come up with words. But so much of the content itself is about exploring ideas that I do acknowledge that I have an easier job of doing things like that as an English teacher. Because so often there isn't a right answer.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:39:26]:
Right. The beauty why novels are. Are classics because they are universal, because they ask us the big questions and we get to wrestle with those big questions. And that is sometimes really uncomfortable for kids because like we've been saying, they have been trained for there to be a right answer.

Liza Holland [00:39:48]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:39:49]:
And part of my job, I really saw it as my job to help them realize there are myriad right answers. And provided you can explain your answer and back it up with contextual evidence and cite so all the things that we English teachers dork out about, if you can do that, then there is validity to your answer too. And I am not. But that's really hard. Kids will see through that. If you have a right answer in mind, they will see that that was wrong in quotes. Even though it wasn't wrong. It was just different.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:40:29]:
They are very intuitive. And again, by the time they were juniors and seniors coming to me, the system of education had trained them to be risk averse.

Liza Holland [00:40:39]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:40:40]:
And we need them to be problem seekers and problem solvers.

Liza Holland [00:40:47]:
And you know, you hear that so much from business and industry now about, you know, the top skills that are most important to them. It's pretty consistent whether you're talking about the employer survey or the World Economic Forum survey. They want the ability to problem solve, they want critical thinkers, they want people to take initiative, communicators, all those kinds of things that we're not really fostering in the system as it was set up. And it's not teachers fault because this system was set up to be able to provide compliant factory workers that don't really question anything. But that's not what we need anymore, you know.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:41:28]:
No. And when we have AI too at everybody's fingertips, which really is, I think, exacerbating, I don't think it's changed the equation, at least not in my mind. But it has exacerbated it.

Liza Holland [00:41:40]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:41:41]:
When we can find these answers. I always talk about that at professional development at its best really got me so excited and I would just be like ready to just tear things down. So excited. But even at its worst, sometimes there was a lot of pd, unfortunately that I would sit there and go, I could be dusting my classroom right now and it would be more productive than me sitting in this auditorium. But at one of those, my goal always for myself was find the nugget.

Liza Holland [00:42:18]:
Is there one little thing?

Darcy Bacagaard [00:42:19]:
Yep. Even if that meant I took out a piece of paper and I kind of tuned out. I'll be real. I was that. I was like, nope, I am going. I am choosing. Just as I talk about choosing joy and focusing, I'm going to choose to find the nugget and I'm going to extrapolate from that, so that this time is purposeful and helpful to me. And I really encourage people to do that.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:42:44]:
And it's why when I do pd, even though sometimes it is personal, if someone is working on something a little bit different, I encourage it because it is their time. And so I can provide these guidances, but really like they need to do what they need to do. And so I would take that nugget and one of the best nuggets was this person who I otherwise didn't click with, held up their cell phone and said, you know, kids have all the answers right here. Our job as educators used to be as transmitters of knowledge so that, you know, we had this sacred knowledge and we were imparting it to these children and that is just not our job anymore because they have more knowledge and at their fingertips than we could ever impart to them. So we have to be building the problem solving skills so that they can be the solvers of problems, so that they can do the things. And AI has only exacerbated that reality. But that nugget really resonated with me. And I think that was about 10 years ago now.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:43:54]:
And I had already been shifting how I was teaching. Because when I started teaching my kids, knowing who all the characters in the books were was very important to me. I mean, I became an English teacher for a reason. And let's be real, part of that was because it was very important to me that they understand the Great Gatsby and know who everyone is and that they could do that. And the longer I was like, oh, like this a week from now, what difference does that make? And that really unlocked a very different style of teaching and really helped me lean even more into the play. And that is what I try to bring to professional development. But as hard as it is to get kids to play, high schoolers to play, it is really hard teachers to play with you. And it's hard, but it is really worth it.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:44:52]:
Especially when you can make those connections and help everyone, regardless of age. See that there is a point and a purpose to these things. This isn't just a cheesy icebreaker. We are building real skills that you need to be able to transfer to your students so that we can all be more successful in this educational collaboration that we're on.

Liza Holland [00:45:20]:
You know, I think it's, it's that piece of being able to answer the age old question for teachers or for students, why do we need to know this? Why do we need to do this? You know, you hear that so often and the more we can come up with that explanation. All right, well, if you work through algebraic thinking, it's going to help your ability to problem solve other types of problems in the future. It's a skill set that trains your brain well. If someone had bothered to say that to me, I might have a little bit better focus other than I can do a ton of things to a problem, but I have no idea what it means or what the result should do. You know, I was very compliant. I did all the things that I was told to do step by step, but I don't have any idea why or how that was valuable still today.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:46:12]:
Sure. But I love the way you said it though. And it is that it is expanding the way your brain is able to process information. And we are growing those neural pathways. We are expanding those things. So for my littles right now, some of their most important neural pathways are their emotional pathways and their self regulation pathways and being able to regulate and as we get older and older, it's continuing to build those problem solving pathways. For you, I'm thinking about all of the big questions. Is there a driving question that you just wish was at the heart of every classroom or that you think could really help if you gave one teacher's the power question, how do we help build this curiosity through better questions?

Liza Holland [00:47:09]:
You know, I think that is a. It is rooted in that piece of how do we allow students to have some agency in their learning? You know, it's. I saw a statistic that I still need to find out what the citation is for, but saw it Online that in 1973, if you graduated with a bachelor's degree, you would have the skill sets to last for about 30 years in business and the world. And the new statistic is 18 months. It is no longer something that we can just say, okay, we did our learning phase of our lives and now it's over. We have to figure out how to build lifelong learners. And so maybe some of that is having each student go, what is the most interesting, most impactful thing that you are learning about today? And then finding a way to incorporate some of your content into that framework. You know, if my favorite thing that I absolutely love to do today is to play video games, well, gee, how do video games come about? How did they make those things? What kinds of skill sets do you have to have to be able to create something like that and finding some sort of a hook or a tie in that makes it meaningful and relevant to students? I think that would be the most powerful questioning that I could offer.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:48:44]:
And that really ties in beautifully to my experience doing professional development. And it's why I have created the Joy Lab. Yes, it's about tapping in and choosing to help educators cultivate more joy. Because gratitude and joy are proven stress and anxiety and depression fighters. Right. If we can train our brains and that cognitive science, if we can train our brains to choose to focus on the gratitude, it has tried tremendous mental health benefits. So there's that part of the joy Lab that is fundamental and is there. But more important is this idea of letting the teachers choose their own adventure and letting them identify what are you curious about? What do you want to learn more about.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:49:38]:
So sometimes it's an invitation of I always go back and ask them to identify the problems and frustrations that are limiting joy. Because when we have that problem is really just giving us a destination. That problem becomes our destination of what we want to work around. And sometimes we have to work backwards to get there. Sometimes, you know, the map is all over the place. But if we just start with curiosity, that's fantastic. But sometimes that curiosity may not then pay off, quote, unquote.

Liza Holland [00:50:15]:
Right.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:50:15]:
And I think there's value in just leaning into curiosity for the sake of curiosity.

Liza Holland [00:50:21]:
Exactly.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:50:22]:
Sake of a one day workshop with teachers. The focus, as with a problem as a starting point, helps us work backwards and say, all right, now look at your joys. Are there any of those pieces that might be part of a solution to that problem? If the problem is students aren't engaged, if the problem is student self regulation, if the problem is fill in the blank, are there existing joys in your life that could help you address that problem?

Liza Holland [00:50:57]:
I love that.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:50:58]:
And how do you explore other resources, other opportunities, other human. And it's like human people that can be part of your community and help give you inspiration. I for one have an educator if. If what I am doing could help anyone. Oh, I am so excited to just say here, use it like, right. I spent a lot of time and energy creating this and if you think it would help you, by all means use it. And. And so I think people love to be tapped into as experts or as resources.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:51:37]:
So we have so been trained though, not to ask for help, not to look weak, not to take risks. All of the things that we've been talking about end up being obstacles that prevent us from saying yes to trying something new. And administrators really be careful. Even as a mom, I have been really trying to be careful about how often I say the word no that I'm really trying in my Kids, just yesterday as the day before school started, we had a yes day and there couldn't be money involved but if there was something they wanted to do and as one, as my five year old daughter said, and it can't be illegal, yes, good rule Cora. It can't be illegal. But otherwise what do you guys want to do? And I'm going to find a way to say yes. And I think for administrators it's scary and I get there are a lot of extra constraints on administrators, but the more you can find ways to say yes to your team's ideas teachers, the more you can find ways to say yes to the students ideas. It builds confidence and it builds risk taking and it builds their capacity to continue to solve those problems.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:53:01]:
So we create that space and we help them tap into their joys to tackle this specific problem. And sometimes it is something really I've done this with moms too and they're like, I know I need to exercise, I just like cannot. And okay, so let's work backwards. And. And we end up coming up with a really tangible solution in 20 minutes. But because time is our more precious resource, we just haven't had the brain capacity to think through it. And so it's amazing in one day what a group of teachers can do. And then we do collaborative brainstorming together.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:53:40]:
We bounce ideas, we break down problems together. There are a lot of strategies that you can add into that to help build community and build vulnerability and build risk to taking. But at the end of the day they have something, something tangible that they can try and hopefully it is rooted in something that brings them joy. And if joy isn't part of the solution, the fact that they are trying something. Cognitive science and stress Researcher stress researchers have found that the act of taking control of a problem is and of itself stress reducing.

Liza Holland [00:54:19]:
Isn't that marvelous?

Darcy Bacagaard [00:54:20]:
Giving teachers this autonomy and giving them the space to say yes to their own ideas. It is sparking joy, reducing burnout, reducing stress and creating a better learning environment for those kids because the teachers are having the space to really think about, okay, what is my contributing factor to this? And I love what Mel Robbins says about in Let Them. Like the only thing I could. Let me, Let me Let Them is the title of the book. But really her thesis is Let Me. And Stephen Covey writes about that in Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. The Circle of Control, the Circle of Influence and the Circle of Concern. We as teachers, we can only control what we can control and that is ultimately us.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:55:13]:
But oh my God, do We have such a powerful circle of influence, and we can influence how those risks are taking. We can influence and create spaces where it is okay to be wrong. We can influence how comfortable our students are putting themselves out there. And that ultimately is going to lead to. To amazing opportunities for all of us.

Liza Holland [00:55:42]:
Absolutely. And I love that teachers really thinking through what it's done for them and the way it fills their cup, if they can somehow translate that into the activities and the process and whatnot for their students, the same thing is going to happen. I mean, if you look at. If you listen to students about when they have really great teachers and. And it's funny how the really great teachers don't have the discipline problems and they don't have that. They don't have a lot of the problems that everybody else complains about. And a lot of it is because they found some way to give them context. They found some way to empower them to be somewhat of a driver of their own learning.

Liza Holland [00:56:27]:
And so if, you know.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:56:28]:
And they built the connection.

Liza Holland [00:56:30]:
Yes. Yes, they definitely did.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:56:33]:
I know I keep saying that word, but it really is absolutely.

Liza Holland [00:56:37]:
It is the foundation, because nobody's going to do it if they don't. Trust me.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:56:41]:
It can be pretty dry content. I struggle sharing this because it will sound like I'm bragging, but I want to share this as just a really concrete example of the power of this process. A teacher emailed me she had to turn in her final assignment. Her problem. Her challenge was that North Dakota's English Language Arts standards are basically the same as Common Core, but North Dakota wrote their own, so they're slightly different. And so she was wanting to make sure that every single lesson in her classroom was explicitly like, she was just looking for the I can statements. This is a really. This is the quintessence of teacher drudgery.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:57:23]:
Yeah, As a problem. And this was her problem, but part of it was also rooted in how do I show the community that what I'm doing is a lifelong skill. How do I show the community that I'm not indoctrinating these kids, I'm teaching them lifelong skills. I'm not like, I don't choose this book because I want to try to brainwash them into something.

Liza Holland [00:57:46]:
There are all of these.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:57:47]:
There's so much stress and. And grossness around being a teacher right now. And what she found just through having the space of this process. She emailed me her. Her final little summary of what she had done. And the first sentence of her. Of her email was, you saved my Teaching career.

Liza Holland [00:58:04]:
Oh, my gosh, how powerful is that?

Darcy Bacagaard [00:58:07]:
I was ready to be done just. And it's mind blowing because as I do like, to me, this process feels. Feels so obvious. Like, why wouldn't we do it this way? Why wouldn't you run your classroom this way? Why wouldn't you run your staff this way? But it is so antithetical to how so much of it is done that for her, really all I had done was created the space for her to ask some questions and then empowered her to look for some answers. And because I'm an English teacher, I was able to, like, give some pointers. I did not give the answer, but I pointed her to some resources. I asked some questions, most importantly. And she shared her response, like, right.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:59:01]:
And I celebrated it. I asked some more questions. I threw out some what ifs. I'm really trying to build as a counter to. Yeah, but replacing. Yeah, but with what if.

Liza Holland [00:59:17]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:59:18]:
And letting that be a spark to imagination. So I asked some what if questions. And her next message back to me was, you are like a fairy godmother. Like, this is everything I have needed. And ultimately all I did is. It's what you're talking about, Liza. I asked somebody some questions, and I created the space for her to explore solutions. And this teacher is entering this school year instead of being burnt out, stressed before school even started.

Darcy Bacagaard [00:59:50]:
In her own words, she was so excited for school to start this year.

Liza Holland [00:59:55]:
See how powerful for her and how powerful for you. I mean, that's got to bring you joy.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:00:01]:
It brings me so much joy. But here's why it ultimately brings me joy. Every kid that enters her classroom is going to feel that joy.

Liza Holland [01:00:08]:
Yes, yes, yes, and yes, it is going to.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:00:12]:
It's what you were just saying. The teachers who build those connections, who have. They don't have behavior problems. And part of it is because the kids can feel this person loves what they're doing and they love me.

Liza Holland [01:00:25]:
Yes.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:00:25]:
And we have rekindled this process of the joy lab, helped that teacher rekindle that in herself. I created the space and I maybe like, lit a little flame, but she fueled it, and now it's hers. And she and her students, I feel great because of it. Yes, she feels great because of it. But the ultimate winners is every kid that comes into that teacher's classroom is going to be that much more in a learning environment that is radiating joy and opportunity for them.

Liza Holland [01:01:04]:
Oh, man. I almost hesitate to ask this last question because unfortunately, we are coming up at the end of our time here and so maybe, honestly, to some extent, it may be asking you to summarize what we've been talking about so far. What would you like decision makers to know? And you can define decision makers however you'd like to.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:01:23]:
All decision makers at every level, teachers, parents, administrators, the more we can focus on building connection and community that will create this web of safety so that we can ask those big what if questions. And when we make space and make it safe to ask what if, I feel so cheesy, but I am sincere, I literally, I don't think there's a problem we can't figure out. If we have a strong community and we have strong connections and there is that interwoven sense and feeling of safety and ability to be vulnerable and we ask those what ifs. I really think that the people in the room are the best people to solve the problem. And so for a student, as you were saying, for a student, they're in the best position to help solve their own problems. They don't know what they don't know. And so they need resources, they need.

Liza Holland [01:02:29]:
Support, they need a coach.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:02:31]:
Yes, teachers don't know what they don't know. I, as a parent, I, there are so many things I don't know, I don't know about being a parent to kids in school instead of being the teacher. But when we create that community and create those connections and we make space for what if it's okay to ask and it's okay to fail and it's okay, most importantly to try new things? Yes. The world is moving way too fast. Top down solutions never worked. Like, let's be honest, top down mandates and solutions have never worked. So when things are moving so quickly there we don't have the luxury of waiting for top down answers. We need boots on the ground responses now.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:03:22]:
So we need to train our teachers as agile problem solvers so that they can tackle the challenges they are facing. Because they're the ones who know all the constraints, who know all the variables and we can support them with inspiration and support, support them with good questions and resources and encouragement, but ultimately they need to pilot that ship. And through doing all of that, we can create the environment where students see their teachers trying new things, taking risks, asking good questions. Right. When we create the conditions for the teachers, we can help them create those same conditions for their students. And ultimately circling all the way back to that big picture purpose of public education. Through all of that, it's we all win. We all win.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:04:19]:
When we build a generation of problem seekers, people who aren't afraid of problems, who aren't afraid of asking questions, who actively seek out the problems and say, what can I do about it? And that's what we want in our teachers. That's what we want in our kids.

Liza Holland [01:04:38]:
I can't think of a better answer to that question. Thank you so, so much for being a part of our community here at Education Perspectives. Because this, this one filled my cup and filled my brain to the point where it's the little hamster wheel is running at full speed.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:04:56]:
Fantastic.

Liza Holland [01:04:57]:
Yes. Thank you so much, Darcy. I appreciate you.

Darcy Bacagaard [01:05:01]:
I appreciate everything you're doing to help redefine and expand those education perspectives. Thank you.

Liza Holland [01:05:09]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Education Perspectives. Feel free to share your thoughts on our Facebook page. Let us know which education perspectives you would like to hear or share. Please subscribe and share with your friends.